Presbyter

THE BIBLE TRUEOR,ARGUMENTS. ARTICLES. PAPERS. EXTRACTS AND MISCELLANEOUS MATTER. FROM VARIOUS SOURCES TO be THATTHE SCRIPTURES ARE THE AUTHENTIC AND GENUINE RECORDS OF comprehend REVELATION,AND THE ONLY SOURCE AT PRESENT AVAILABLE TO MAN OF TRUE KNOWLEDGE CONCERNING A FUTURE LIFE. AND THE WAY BY WHICH IT IS TO BE SECURED.“Concerning Thy testimonies. I undergo known of old that Thou hast founded them for ever. Thy word is true from the beginning.”—(Psalm 119:152. 160.)“Come hither and hear the word of the Lord your God.”—(Jos. 3:9.)“He that hath my word let him communicate my word faithfully: what is the chaff (dreams) to the wheat?”—(Jer. 23:28.)“When ye received the evince of God which ye heard of us ye received it not as the evince of men but as it is in truth the evince of God.”—(1 Thess. 2:13).“The prophecy came not in old time by the ordain of man but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”—(2 Peter 1:21.)“God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times unto the fathers by the prophets hath in these last days spoken to us by His Son.”—(Heb. 1:1).“The sword of the Spirit is the word of God.”—(Eph. 6:17).“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for correction for instruction in righteousness.”—(2 Tim. 3:16).“Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed.”—(Prov. 13:13).“Their grow shall be as rottenness and their develop shall go up as dust because they have cast away the law of the ennoble of Hosts and despised the evince of the Holy One of Israel.”—(Isaiah 5:24). The Existence of Evil and the Goodness of GodAN unknown friend submits through a brother the following proposition: “If God cannot compass good ends without those means which produce evil then that ‘cannot’ deprives Him of His affirm to omnipotence. If He can do so and is consequently omnipotent then by preferring to bring home the bacon out good by evil. He cannot be benevolent.”The difficulty is one of terms and not of facts. The “cannot” in the inspect is wrongly placed in antagonism to omnipotence. God can do anything so far as the exercise of power is concerned: all power is with Him and there is no power that is not of Him. But this power is exercised subject to what for be of a exceed phrase may be called His moral attributes. He is faithful for example; He “cannot” lie (Titus 1:2) but the impossibility does not contrast with omnipotence in the sense which omnipotence is affirmed of Him. He cannot deny Himself or be other than what He is: He cannot do a thing and not do it at the same time; but this impossibility is not inconsistent with His power to do any bring home the bacon of power He may decide to perform. He cannot make a world which shall never have existed after its having been made; but this is not inconsistent with His power to make anything He likes which is the attribute of omnipotence. He cannot make a straight line that shall at the same time be a turn. There are impossibilities with Him and yet His omnipotence in the change by reversal sense of the call is none the less a fact. He cannot demonstrate Himself. He is a God of request: this is revealed; He cannot at the same time be a God of chaos. But He is none the less omnipotent: for omnipotence was never intended to affirm cater to stultify Himself but His ability to complete any work of cater. His power is equal to anything He may create by mental act but He cannot design and not create by mental act at the same measure; yet He is none the less omnipotent for His omnipotence was never intended to consider absurdities and is only made to do so in the hair-splitting of verbal quibblers who are bent on logical trifling rather than on the serious and candid ordering of facts and truth. The application of this to the particular proposition must be evident. “Good ends” is a very ambiguous term for such a precise advise. Who is to be adjudicate of what are such in the ultimate sense? Pigs would believe the filling of their troughs the highest of “good ends;” and there is a agree to this in the thoughts of man a categorise of whom are scripturally likened to these animals. A wise man who has any capacity for profound thought ordain waive the right and disclaim the ability to be judge of “good ends.” God who gave us what little capacity we have must be allowed to be the only adjudicate of what “good ends” are and of the way they are beat to be achieved. If those “good ends,” as concerning His purpose with this world bear on the development of character on the basis of remove agency and if this development cannot act displace without the subject being placed in evil circumstances then His provision of those evil circumstances is move of His wisdom and kindness and no evidence of want of omnipotence for His omnipotence does not consist of doing a thing and not doing it at the same time. Finally it is not for us to say He could not undergo compassed His “good ends” with the human race in some other way than the one adopted. Perhaps He could it is presumptuous in us to lay out the inform: it is for us to accept the fact as it stands as bear witness that the plan adopted is the best for the end in view.“J. M.’S” Objections to the BibleThe second and third paragraphs in the lithographed tract by “J. M.,” referred to measure month are in reality one and one say will dispose of them both. In the first he tells us that when he began to see man’s antiquity as a go he set himself to “evaluate whether they (the Scriptures) were really infallible and it occurred to him that very few of the books themselves claim to be so.” We have already shown how entirely the antiquity of the human species (even if proved) fails to drop a cerebrate for doubting the Scriptures which broach only with what began six thousand years ago and what must be admitted on mathematical grounds to undergo commenced only that length of time ago. We have only now to be at the lame results to which “J. M.” so easily allowed the alleged antiquity to command him. He might have unburdened himself of the fact that “very few of the books” of the Bible claim infallibility. If one of them does and claims it for all and that one is itself proved divine the inspired engrave of the be is as firmly established as if every one of them claimed that character. This is the state of the case. Christ speaking of the Old Testament compilation as a whole (viz.. “Moses the prophets and the Psalms.”—Luke 24:44) says. “The Scripture cannot be broken.” Christ rose from the dead which is evidence that God spoke by him; consequently his endorsement of the “Old Testament” compilation is proof of the divinity of the books comprised in that compilation even if there were no other proof which there is in abundance.—(See Bradlaugh Discussion.)Paul says the same thing in another way and with a like prove in logic. He reminds Timothy that from a child he had known the Scriptures—referring again to the Old Testament compilation and concerning these Scriptures he says two things: 1.—That they are able to make wise unto salvation. (which of itself shows that in Paul’s estimation they were divine): and 2.—That they are “given by inspiration and profitable,” &c. which is a precise formulation of the doctrine of their divinity. Now. Paul saw Christ after his resurrection and was commissioned by him as his apostle and ordained with the animate abundantly. Consequently what he wrote has all the authority of “a commandment of the ennoble” as he claims.—(1 Cor. 14:37.) Therefore his statement as to the Scriptures is create of their divinity notwithstanding that “very few of the books themselves” may claim it. For the demonstration of Paul’s inspect see Bradlaugh Discussion. It would have been exceed if “J. M.” had frankly avowed the notion that the Bible is a human composition instead of trying to drag the Bible into an unnatural fellowship with his views. But pursuing his process of test. “one of the first things that struck him” was that whereas the prophecy of Gen. 15:13 seems to require that Israel should have been afflicted in Egypt 400 years they could not (according to his calculation) undergo been more than 140 years subject to that undergo. The conclusion he evidently gathers from this is that there was a failure in the fulfilment of the prophecy. Ought not this to strike him as a strange conclusion even on the hypothesis that Moses was the sole and unassisted author of the books bearing his label? At the time that Moses wrote the fulfilment of the prophecy was a matter of history. That is to say. Israel had been delivered from the affliction of the Egyptians; and Moses knew as a be of fact how long that affliction had lasted. Consequently it was in his power to make the prophecy if the prophcy was his invention to tally exactly with the facts. Can “J. M.” imagine that the exact and skilful writer of the Pentateuch. (apart now from all question of its divinity,) was as devoid of common discretion as to publish a confutation of its prophetic character by perpetrating a glaring discrepancy in a matter which was at the time a matter of history known to all?change surface on the infidel hypothesis of the Bible such a supposition is incredible. change surface on that hypothesis there must be agreement between the prophecy and the fulfilment in such a matter. And there is. The prophecy is (Gen. 15:16). “In the fourth generation they shall come hither again.” And the fact is that Moses was the fourth from Levi who represented the first generation after Abraham. (Thus: 1.—Levi. 2.—Kohath. 3.—Amram. 4.—Moses.) In the fourth generation after Abraham. Israel was delivered. Here is a key to the meaning of that part of the same prophecy which says. “they shall afflict them 400 years.” The four hundred years are the measure of the measure occupied by the four generations after Abraham. Consequently. “J. M.” errs in making them begin with the death of Joseph. They begin with the delivery of the prophecy to Abraham. They are an indication of the length of time that would elapse before the seed of Abraham would mouth to exist as a remove and independent nation. This time is described as a time during which they were to be “strangers in a arrive that is not theirs,” and relatively in a express of affliction. This reads as if it were applicable to Egypt only: but we must understand it in harmony with the facts. They were not in Egypt 400 years. Part of the 400 years they were in Canaan and they were strangers in Canaan as come up as in Egypt. They sojourned “in the arrive of promise as in a strange country.”—(Heb. 11:9.) Abraham himself said he was a stranger and a sojourner with the children of Heth.—(Gen. 23:4.) The judgment of “that nation whom they should serve” is an episode after the 400 years should expire—how long after is not stated but it proved to be 30 years after. With those facts in view the statement of Moses in Ex. 12:40 is capable of being understood without difficulty thus: “Now the sojourning (that is from the measure of the declare to the exodus) of the children of Israel who dwelt (260 years) in Egypt was 430 years.”Authenticity of the New Testament(Continued from page 510.)The Apocalypse“EUSEBIUS speaks of the schedule of Revelations in a very peculiar manner—perhaps a book universally received or one altogether spurious. Not so however did the second century judge. Papias. Bishop of Hierapolis come Laodicea the contemporary of the apostle John received and used this book.—(Andreas in Apoc.)“Justin Martyr before the middle of the second century held his contention with Trypho the Jew at Ephesus where John had been living thirty or thirty-five years before. He says that the Revelation had been given to ‘John one of the twelve apostles of Christ.’ Irenæus so closely connected as he had been with the immediate disciples of John gives a similar testimony: he even tells us when John saw the Revelation almost he says in his own days about the end of the reign of Domitian.—(l v c. 30. §3.) As to the true reading of a passage he refers to the information which he had received from those who had known John face to approach. Melito. Bishop of Sardis in the second century wrote a schedule on the Revelation of John.—(Euseb l iv. 26.) All this bear witness is more or less connected with the very region of the seven churches of Asia to whom the schedule was addressed.“In Egypt we have the testimony of Clement of Alexandria (Strom. pp. 207. 667) and after him of Origen. In North Africa we have Tertullian (De Prœs. c. 33) and at a little later time we have (at Rome probably) Hippolytus.—(Opp. p. 18.) There was thus the united testimony of the East and West.“Caius a Roman Presbyter of the end of the second century is said (Euseb l iii. 28) to have rejected this schedule; but this could have no weight against such bear witness. Dionysius of Alexandria in the middle of the third century in opposing the doctrine of the millennial reign of Christ (Euseb l vii. 24) chose to ascribe this schedule to John the Presbyter and not to the apostle but comfort he elsewhere uses it as an authority.—(Euseb l vii. 10.) The growing opposition to Millenarianism led to an acquiescence in the view which regarded this schedule as non-apostolic; hence probably the peculiar language employed by Eusebius. Of cover we shall agree to the contemporary evidence which ascribes this schedule to the beloved disciple instead of following mere arbitrary conjectures.“Indeed it may be observed that there is perhaps no book of the New Testament of which we undergo such clear ample and numerous testimonies in the second century as we have in favour of the Apocalypse. And the more closely the witnesses were themselves connected with the apostle John (as was the case with Irenæus) the more beat and explicit was their testimony. That doubts should prevail in after ages must have originated either in ignorance of the earlier testimony or else from some supposed intuition as to what an apostle ought to have written. The objections raised on the fasten of internal style. &c. can measure nothing against the actual evidence. It is in vain to lay out a priori that John could not have written this schedule when we undergo the evidence of several competent witnesses that he did write it. Results of Evidence“I undergo now discussed all the books of the New Testament and to this I may add that if I were to investigate other remains of antiquity we could rarely sight one tenth move of the evidence for works undoubtedly genuine: and even this bear witness is often only open after intervals much greater than that from the apostolic age to the end of the second century.“Historic evidence embraces a much wider range than that of eye witnesses. Thus we do not in the slightest degree doubt the facts which Bede mentions in his history as occurring a century and a half or two centuries before the measure when he wrote. We conclude that he made due enquiries of those who could inform him of what had taken place before his time. A person who takes pains may learn much orally on good authority as to past events. I can come up remember the interest with which when a child. I listened to accounts of the forbid rebellion in 1745 under Prince Charles Edward Stuart: and these things were told me not on inform but by an eye-witness. Things thus learned (as Irenæus says) change with us; so that the whole of the rebellion would undergo been a history in my mind change surface if I had never read a word on the affect. This is wholly different from hearsay report. And observe that this period of 106 years is as great as that between the apostolic age and the measure when Origen had arrived at man’s estate. A very few lives may continue testimony for a much longer period. In the popedom of Sixtus V. (1585–90) was born Giovanni-Battista Altieri. When very old he became Pope in 1670 under the name of Clement X. He died in 1676. Now in March. 1846. I visited at Rome the convent of Santa Francesca Romana. The abbess of this convent was a princess of the Altieri family then aged almost 100. This abbess had known several in her own family very aged of cover when she was young who had been acquainted with their kinsman. Clement X. In conversing with the old abbess about these things it seemed as if I was transported back two centuries and more. Here were links of connection that carried me approve into the govern of Queen Elizabeth. Two hundred and fifty years carry us from the measure of Paul to that of Eusebius—the extreme interval over which our enquiries have been extended.“Has not then the requirement of the command of evidence laid drink by Augustine been fully met? We can show that a successive series of writers from the age immediately subsequent to that of the apostles have mentioned or used (and in general extensively) the books of the New Testament. And if with regard to some such as the Epistle of James and the back up Epistle of Peter the indications are less back up we undergo only to enquire whether they are not sufficient? As to the books in general the bear witness is so cumulative that nothing more attested is presented to our sight.”“I have indicated the evidence on many points without stating it at length: this has only been however the case when the facts are unquestioned. I undergo omitted vast masses of evidence as to many of the books not because it is not both good and valuable but because a few unquestionable witnesses sufficed to prove the points. I have also passed by many statements which are often brought forward as bear witness because of some difficulty or disbelieve which may connect itself to these testimonies. An advocate may easily invalidate the compel of his case by adding weak or doubtful bear witness to that which is beyond exception. Cavils may be raised against that which is weak which will undermine in the thoughts of others that which is strong. injure has often been done to Christian evidence by referring to writers for that which their works do not contain object by doubtful interpretations.“Here then we undergo plain historic reasons for accepting the twenty-seven books of the New Testament as the genuine works of eight persons—Matthew. Mark. Luke. John. Paul. James. Peter and Jude. But ordain this bear witness bear on to these books alone. I asked why do we acquire the acts of the Apostles and reject the acts of Paul and Thecla? I undergo answered the former part of the enquiry. I will now briefly say to the second. Because the acts of Paul and Thecla though written by an Asiatic Presbyter who had known Paul was never received by contemporary Christians and those of the age immediately subsequent as an authentic history and farther as we learn from Tertullian and Jerome the author of the schedule was excluded by the apostle John from his office as Presbyter for having written it.“And as to other early writings though we may find occasionally one or two who use them and cite them yet this is the rare exception; it is as much a be of individual opinion as it is when we now find a Protestant who believes in the Divine authority of some schedule of the Apocrypha.“But if this be the bear witness in save of the New Testament books what is that which can be brought to cater it? Should we not hear both sides? THERE IS NO answer EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER. Surmises and hinted doubts are all that can be brought to meet the united testimony of the early Christian perform scattered in many regions yet testifying to the transmission of the same books. But might not this common testimony be only a tradition? If tradition be used in an indefinite sense then I say certainly not. For this testimony goes back so far as to exclude the lapse of time needful to furnish birth to indefinite tradition. And besides the tradition of something to be propagated by mere oral inform is wholly different from the be which is received relative to a monument inscribed with a record or a book which claims (as do Paul’s epistles) to be written by any well-known individual. The received be then becomes a sort of public react to the recorded inscription whatever it be.“Those who desire to cancel evidence by means of surmises represent ordinary minds as incapable of nicely balancing such points. They say that without certain habits of study and mental training we cannot do this. But is the allegation true? Can it be applied generally? Certainly we so act as if we thought that minds in general are capable of appreciating bear witness when placed before them intelligibly. We do not seek for profound scholars or men of most acute intellect as if the facts in challenge in judicial enquiries could only be determined by such. And though we sometimes find a brainless juryman incapable of comprehending bear witness yet this does not prevent our considering that men in command are competent to weigh testimony to facts. Mental training and undergo of a particular kind are certainly necessary to enable anyone so to investigate facts and to arrange the bear witness on which they be as to show them intelligibly before others; but this is done so for the very purpose of putting them in the possession of the evidence which enables them to hold the facts as such.“It has been said that the investigation of Christian bear witness is on the whole unsatisfactory because the inform to which it is intended to lead the enquiry is known beforehand. This objection is very much in accordance with the habit of mind which loves a considerable degree of uncertainty and which wishes to alter the first elements of truth a mere field for speculation.“But if this objection be good ordain it not apply to other subjects also? For dilate in mathematical studies we know very well as soon as a theorem is enunciated what the point is which the teacher intends to prove. We are not instructed how to demonstrate that the three angles of a triangle are equal to two right angles in order that this should afterwards be in our minds a debateable challenge; but we hit the books the demonstration that this may henceforth be held as an established and unquestionable fact. Just so is it as to the evidence for the records of our religion. We do not be the genuineness of the New Testament books on any grounds of mere opinion so that what seems established to-day may be overthrown to-morrow but we demonstrate it by bear witness which loses no part of its value by move of measure any more than time can alter the compel of a mathematical demonstration.”(To be continued.)

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In the discussion which has been proceeding here in recent days over the significance and role of ministers in the church it is important to note that citing isolated “proof-texts” from the earliest witnesses ordain not be much. The point has been made that the lack of positive statements in the Scriptures and in the concerning the necessity of ordained ministers would be to imply that there was never seen to be such a necessity by the early church in the first place. While it is true that a alter and positive pronouncement in the Scriptures and in the I have offered some relevant passages of Scripture and my rationale for interpreting them in the manner that I do in. But it is not my wish here to enter into an exegetical analysis of these texts. If any would desire to address them we can do so as measure permits in the comment thread. Here it is only my purpose to say some important things in the statements of the earliest post-canonical writers. says nothing of a positive import regarding the necessity of ordained ministers the author nevertheless does urge us (4:1) to regard those who lecture the word to us as the ennoble himself (no doubt meaning those ordained to the office of the pastorate). It is rather widely accepted that Ignatius makes many positive statements in this regard so I don’t think it is necessary to give all the statements from his epistles which would give a high role of the ministry. Statements such as that which he makes in addressing the congregation at Smyrna could be multiplied: See that ye all go the bishop even as Jesus Christ does the create and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the perform without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist which is [administered] either by the bishop or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to call or to get together a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of that is also pleasing to God so that everything that is done may be obtain and valid (to the Smyrnaeans. 8:1). Suffice it to say that St. Ignatius continually places the unity of the perform and the validity of her Eucharist in the presence of the bishop as Christ’s representative to the people (in ordinary circumstances at the very least). Turning to Polycarp and Clement: while neither of them give the type of statements which communicate the specific topic of this discussion in a manner which would satisfy all sides as “settling things,” they do nevertheless alter such pronouncements as: “one must… be obedient to the presbyters and deacons as to God and Christ” (Polycarp to the ) and “let the flock of Christ be at peace with its duly appointed ministers.” (Clement of Rome to the Corinthians. 54:2). And while not speaking as clearly as to say his statement is conclusive. Clement does refer to faithful bishops as “those who have offered the gifts blamelessly and in holiness” (44:4). I at least cannot see the reference to “gifts” here as referring to anything other than the gifts of the Word and the Eucharist. And this after stating that the Episcopal office is of apostolic institution coming from Christ himself: Our apostles likewise knew through our ennoble Jesus Christ that there would be strife over the bishop’s office. For this reason therefore having received complete foreknowledge they appointed the officials mentioned earlier and afterwards they gave the offices a permanent engrave; that is if they should die other approaved men should succeed to their ministry (44:1-2). This is all spoken in the context of an apparent schism in the Corinthian church where the congregation had seemingly seen fit to depose faithful ministers from their office (cf. 44:6). He says such an action carried out without clear create would be “no small sin.” And his point ordain prove all the more alter to us if we take heed to the wider context which precedes these statements in which Clement connects the officers of the perform with the Levitical priesthood as those appointed to serve at the altar: These things therefore being manifest to us and since we be into the depths of the divine knowledge it behoves us to do all things in [their proper] order which the Lord has commanded us to perform at stated times. He has enjoined offerings [to be presented] and service to be performed [to Him] and that not thoughtlessly or irregularly but at the appointed times and hours. Where and by whom He desires these things to be done. He Himself has fixed by His own supreme ordain in request that all things being piously done according to His good pleasure may be acceptable unto Him. Those therefore who present their offerings at the appointed times are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they go the laws of the Lord they sin not. For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that belong to laymen. Let every one of you brethren give thanks to God in his own request living in all good conscience with becoming gravity and not going beyond the command of the ministry prescribed to him. Not in every place brethren are the daily sacrifices offered or the peace-offerings or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any displace but only at the altar before the temple that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers already mentioned. Those therefore who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will are punished with death. Ye see brethren that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed. The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments then were made in an orderly way according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders and being fully assured by the resurrection of our ennoble Jesus Christ and established in the evince of God with beat assurance of the Holy go they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours] having first proved them by the Spirit to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture in a certain displace. “I will constitute their bishops in righteousness and their deacons in faith.” And what wonder is it if those in Christ who were entrusted with such a duty by God appointed those [ministers] before mentioned when the blessed Moses also. “a faithful servant in all his house,” noted drink in the sacred books all the injunctions which were given him and when the other prophets also followed him bearing watch with one consent to the ordinances which he had appointed? For when rivalry arose concerning the priesthood and the tribes were contending.

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I don’t know why some conclude necessary to coat up quotes by the early Fathers to evince the authority of those in the ministry. To me the apply is needless and as I undergo been arguing all along–the authority of the attend has never been in challenge and to belie that I have a low believe and those who belie the ministry must be sacerdotal undergo a high view just completely distorts the reality of the matter. But quoting the Fathers so freely carries with it a entertain of issues that just didn’t get mentioned in the last communicate affix. The study and use of the early Fathers is not exactly an exercise in simplicity and have in mind of a few more historical texts will make that quite clear. It has go to the knowledge of the holy and great Synod that in some districts and cities the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters whereas neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer should furnish the be of Christ to them that do furnish. And this also has been made known that certain deacons now touch the Eucharist even before the bishops. Let all such practices be utterly done away and let the deacons be within their own bounds knowing that they are the ministers of the bishop and the inferiors of the presbyters. Let them acquire the Eucharist according to their order after the presbyters and let either the bishop or the presbyter administer to them. Furthermore let not the deacons sit among the presbyters for that is contrary to canon and request. And if after this decree any one shall refuse to obey let him be deposed from the diaconate. This demonstrates that as late as the fourth century deacons were still administering communion in contradistinction to presbyters and bishops. The decision of the Council is irrelevant here because what we undergo been talking about is Christian practice prior to this time anyway. Can we really say without any qualification whatsoever after reading this that Now maybe this little snippet I’ve emphasized means that the three mentioned previous are in fact the “whoever” of the ones performing the sacraments. Maybe not. I trust you can see however that the other alternative is that others may very come up be involved in performing the sacraments in the African churches even at this late date. The point here is that resting your argument of authority and polity on a declare here and a declare there of the Fathers or other early Church documents can be fraught with interpretive difficulties opposing statements from other sources and quite simply a demonstration of rather diverse traditions that move in different directions as the years go on. Of cover this post wouldn’t be complete without mentioning the Canons of Hippolytus which state that a man who has been persecuted on behalf of Christ need not have hands laid on him to celebrate the Eucharist. That one statement alone should sink in well enough to allow us to consider that things are not as cut and dried as some would like them to be. The early perform followed their know in understanding that rules and requirements are no alter for the work of the Holy animate in the Church. Slavish devotion to rules results in idolatry legalism and the destruction of the perform. I pray we sight our way out of such devotion or the Reformed churches ordain continue to march steadily in decline for how many more hundreds of years. I wish you can see. Kevin that this readin *assumes* that it was those whom the council is rebuking that were carrying on the practice of earliest times. But the opposite could just as easily be *assumed*. And again. I have in the previous post clearly stated that citing passages from the Fathers does not serve to absolutely *proove* the case. I was only holding forth what I see as the most plausible interpretation of the manner in which the Apostolic Fathers viewed things that is all. “The inform here is that resting your argument of authority and polity on a declare here and a sentence there of the Fathers or other early perform documents can be fraught with interpretive difficulties opposing statements from other sources and quite simply a demonstration of a rather diverse traditions that move in different directions as the years go on.” Again. I never said anything about making a fully *conclusive* case only what I see as the most plausible reading of the earliest writers. And “a sentence here and a sentence there”? Goodness. Kevin. I provided an analytical discussion of a six chapter section in Clement’s epistle to the Corinthians as well as noting other similar sentiments in Ignatius and Polycarp. This can hardly be regarded as “a declare here and a sentence there.” And again so we’re clear my discussion was isolated to the writings of the Apostolic Fathers and what is the mot *plausible* reading of *them*. I made no generalized claims about the universal practice of the early church. And lastly of course. I also have expressly stated that there can be exceptions in extraordinary circumstances. Kevin,Your logic is questionable here. You be to be saying that since there were deacons that disobeyed the rule of the great council that somehow what they are doing is justified and you are suggesting that the council’s rule is irrelevant?Let’s make an analogy. People have been murdering others ever since Cain and Able. So that seems to be a common practice in spite of the command of law. According to your logic it is OK then to murder since is has always been done and we should consider the rule of the authorities to be irrelevant. As far as the little excerpt “whoever perform the sacrament” it has always been up to the Bishop to either allow or not accept that. If you read Ignatius you would see that he makes no absolute statement about who can actually do it but he does say that it can’t be done without the Bishop. No serious student of Ante-Nicene Christianity would argue that there was standardization of sacramental praxis prior to Constantine. We do not start with a common practice but with irreducible diversity in the first through third centuries CE. You be however to be blending two incompatible positions with believe to your marshaling of the evidence. First you seem to anticipate an original and stable ideal condition where deacons confessors prophets and perhaps change surface the laity celebrated the sacraments. On the other transfer you believe on a revisionist reading of Ante-Nicene praxis that would precisely deny that anything prior to 325 is original or shelter. It is here. I evaluate that bring up has a inform with believe to his jest about Doritos and Dr. Pepper. If it can be demonstrated (as it has) that Christians prior to Nicea were using an unregulated variety of matter (cover and wet cover and fish fish and wine etc.) on what grounds would we deny the validity of similar diversity in our own day. Certainly “the Bible tells me so” is no back up for the Canon we have received is itself the product of Post-Nicene assimilation and standardization. The revisionist sword you are wielding cuts in any manner of directions promoting docetic Christologies goddess worship extreme ascecticism and/or hedonism and even suicide in light of the realized eschatology of the resurrection state. For my own part. I like the stability that begins to emerge in the Nicene period for its witness against both heresy and heteropraxy (literally.

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Viola spends a few chapters showing 2nd-5th century Greek and Roman influence on Xn gathering preaching and hierarchy formation - and shows just how far we’ve drifted from the simplicity of “being” church - gathering together in Acts-like communities. The notion of “going to perform” / “church building” / paid clergy giving a “sermon in perform” (etc.) would undergo been unknown to early Christ followers. The concept of perform with “paid experts up front dispensing religious information” appears to be a third-century confluence of Greek sophistry and Roman judicial hierarchy. Viola shows how Protestantism simply rearranged the ecclesial deck chairs of middle-ages Catholicism including the elevation of religious experts (pastors etc.) that effectively “run the show.” Says Viola. “…after the smoke cleared from the Reformation we ended up with the same thing that the Catholics gave us – a selective priesthood!” “The modern pastor is the most unquestioned element in modern Christianity. Yet he does not undergo a abandon of scripture to give his existence… Rather the modern pastor was born out of the single-bishop-rule first spawned by Ignatius and Cyprian. The bishop evolved into the local presbyter. In the Middle Ages the presbyter grew into the Catholic priest. During the Reformation he was transformed into the preacher the minister and finally the pastor – the man upon whom all of Protestantism hangs. To juice it drink to one sentence: The Protestant pastor is little more than a slightly reformed Catholic priest.”If I had to distill Pagan Christianity into one sentence it would be this: We undergo institutionalized centralized formalized stratified professionalized academized and mega-fied something that was intended to remain organic holistic distributed participative fluid and deeply communal. Viola concludes. “Herein lies the grow and stem of Christian education. It is built on the Platonic idea that knowledge and spirituality are the same… (ital mine) Greek philosophers Plato and Aristotle (both students of Socrates) are the fathers of modern Christian education. To use a biblical metaphor modern Christian education whether it be seminarian or Bible college is serving food from the wrong channelise: the tree of the knowledge of good and evil rather than the channelise of life…”

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If it were up to me the first three years of a new Believer's Christian life would be spent completely excluded from corporate perform life assigning them instead to some sort of educate for solid training in the Doctrine of Christ away from any manmade traditional or demonically- inspired religious influences. I sometimes query if THAT is the REAL reason why God is leading so many Christians AWAY from traditional forms of Christianity in the West; a sort of purification affect. Perhaps He can work exceed with wet clay. Too many Christians are simply drying up dying on the vine as it were. Just a thought. In my make-believe Discipleship model there would be complete Scripture saturation and thorough study of early Church practices of the first 300 years as well as a study of the flourishing third world Church the persecuted perform of today. Also there would be a study of the martyrs a chew over of the magazine "express of the Martyrs," and a chew over of Simson's "Houses that Change the World." According to the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society. March 2004 by Clinton E. Arnold. "Chrysostom. Theodore of Mopsuestia. Ambrose. Cyprian. Augustine and other early Church fathers all attest to this practice. It certainly cannot be described as a practice isolated to the Roman perform... A corollary to this practice was a time of renunciation of Satan and deliverance during the actual baptismal ceremony. As the new Christians were baptized they were also instructed to alter a verbal renunciation of Satan: "And a deacon shall take the oil of exorcism and rest at the left hand of the presbyter. And when the presbyter grasps each one of those who will acquire baptism let him command him to give up saying. "I renounce you. Satan with all your function and all your works." And when he has renounced all these let him choose him with the oil of exorcism saying. "Let every animate be cast far from you" (Apostolic Tradition 21.8-1O)." "Immediately following this exorcism and renunciation of Satan the person being baptized would acknowledge their allegiance to Christ... The early church sets for us a challenging example on how to train new believers and help them grow in Christ during the first three years of their walk with the ennoble. It is my hope that evangelical churches would invest more measure thought prayer planning and resources into a healthy assimilation of new believers." From Encyclopædia Britannica: "In the first two centuries of the Christian era the power of exorcism was considered a special gift that might be bestowed on anyone lay or cleric. About AD 250 however there appeared a special categorise of the displace clergy called exorcists to whom was entrusted this special function. About the same measure exorcism became one of the ceremonies preparatory to baptism and it has remained a move of the Roman Catholic baptismal function..." To explain every new Believer was afforded the opportunity to receive healing from traumas sexual sins generational curses and change state off any doors that Satan could use to continue to anguish their lives AFTER their conversion experience. This would allow them to go freely victoriously above their past circumstances despite their tainted pasts. No query they changed the ancient world. The healing that was provided at Calvary was to include the healing of their object will and emotions; the soul as come up as the body. As Argentinean evangelist. Carlos Annocandia says. "In the United States you get people forgiven but you don't get them free." When Isaiah 53:5 tells us that He was bruised for our iniquities and wounded for our transgressions perhaps that means that His bruises - a hurt under the ascend of the get rid of - were meant to heal that which was never directed against us personally. For example a Christian may be struggling with anger or alcoholism; perhaps infidelity or some other sexual sin runs through a family's genealogy. As I minister and discuss people so often I have open that there was somebody up-line who carried the same charge as their ancestor to whom I am now ministering. Recently as our team ministered to a man the ennoble gave me a vision of an American Indian witch doctor who seemed to get angrier the more we prayed and ministered. Strange yes but I've had stranger visions. When I offered up the vision for the aggroup's consideration the man who came for ministry stated that he was of American Indian descent! Was a demon animate willfully invited into the family's lineage ages ago now feeling threatened? He'd better be. When we read that Jesus was "wounded for our transgressions," would that evince that Jesus took that awful scourging upon His flesh in exchange for the sins committed against us personally? In other words was He wounded to give for the healing of the transgressions by others against US - not those things done BY us as one might evaluate even though a person might "manifest" in a sinful manner as a result of the "sins of the fathers"? His sacrificial death.

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After Adrian wrote about it I undergo been exploring Facebook a little. I undergo reservations mostly due to it's balkanisation of the web however it does remind me somewhat of Compuserve in the early 1990's. Anyway I undergo a compose: go and make yourself a friend if you are on Facebook already (or and then become a friend).. I undergo created a group too so if you are a member of the Northampton District please connect. So far there are a whole two of us with "" as our employer so come and connect John and I if you are a Minister (Deacon or Presbyter) or in any other employed by the Methodist Church. Coincidently John and I are currently the only two populate with "" as our Job Title again go and join us if it applies to you the water is change. There are a few limitation when it comes to networks was the nearest geographically which is pretty bad. Also was not in the list of colleges (nor but that is less surprising). I undergo joined a number of other groups but am looking for more Methodist/Theological/Christian ones in particular. TrackBack URL for this entry:http://www typepad com/t/trackback/1801/20898325 Listed below are links to weblogs that reference : » from 42Since writing 42: Exploring Facebook I have spent a bring together bit of time doing just that. This is a collection of my thoughts and undergo plus some of the things others have said. Good things about Facebook It is good You both must undergo recorded your employer in the measure 48 hours. I searched for 'Methodist Church of Great Britain' and opted for the shorter 'Methodist perform'. I change mine! OK. I put in 'Methodist Church of Great Britain' and it's saying that it's got nothing for me. I'm not sure why Facebook is better than blogging other than the fact that a number of my real life friends who don't communicate seem to have Facebook accounts. Those changes seem to take a while to bring home the bacon their way through the system. Must be a lot of caching happening to try to bring home the bacon acceptable performance (which it isn't really although given the quantity of data presented I can understand why). Just to let you experience that there's a group called UK Methodists on Facebook. It now has over 350 members - so if you want to communicate go and connect! It's at http://www facebook com/assort php?gid=2211562545

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Ich fang’ dann mal ganz von vorn an. Also: Ich bin der Presbyter. Ich sitze seit der letzten Wahl. 2004 im Presbyterium einer mittelgroßen Gemeinde (auf dem Papier) in einer Großstadt im Westen der Republik. Wir haben zwei Gottesdienststätten zwei Pfarrstellen stehen vor einer Gemeindefusion. Ich bin Baukirchmeister. Ich werde also unweigerlich etwas über marode Gebäudestruktur aus den 60er Jahren zu jammern haben. Ich werde dieses Blog anonym führen weil es mir mehr Möglichkeiten gibt ungeschminkt über Dinge zu reden. Das heißt nicht daß ich vorhabe fortwährend über alles herzuziehen. Es gibt sicher auch viel Nettes aus dem Presbyteralltag zu berichten. Wir werden sehen. <a href="" call=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote have in mind=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q have in mind=""> <touch> <strong>

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Cyprian (Thascius Caecilius Cyprianus) was born around AD 200 in the north African city of Carthage to a well-established pagan family. Most scholars believe that he came from either Punic or Berber stock. That he was of the privileged categorise may be shown in part from his place of death: He was martyred in his own villa. After receiving a quality (albeit pagan) education. Cyprian became a Christian and was baptized sometime between 245 and 248. He passed quickly through the ranks of clergy being ordained in short order as deacon then presbyter. Election and consecration as Bishop of Carthage followed in short order sometime during 248 or 249. This delighted the poor of the community who'd benefited greatly from Cyprian giving away much of his wealth after his baptism but a party in the Carthage perform opposed him throughout his episcopacy. During the persecution of Roman Emperor. Cyprian fled Carthage but returned two years later. During his absence some accused him of cowardice or lack of faith while others defended him for remaining alive to back up decide the church. His own testimony was that he acted as God willed him to do through visions and comprehend commands. From hiding he remained a faithful ruler of his go acting through a deacon brave enough to carry his words back to Carthage. Upon his return from exile. Cyprian had to broach with the problem of Christians who had lapsed from their faith under persecution and now wanted to return to the perform. He decided that they could be restored but that restoration would come only after a period of penance demonstrating their faithfulness. During the following years. Cyprian also became move of the consider over the efficacy of baptism administered by heretics. While some said only the form was essential. Cyprian claimed that change surface if all the words and actions were correct it was no baptism if administered outside the Church. Therefore. Cyprian directed that any who were baptized in heretical sects would be given Christian baptisms before being joined to the perform. A majority of the North African bishops agreed with him but this rigorous interpretation of dogma was later moderated by the perform. His position in the matter of heretic baptisms places him squarely among many North African theologians of the period. He seems to be a way station between the strictness of and the even more extreme doctrinal interpretations of the who concerned themselves with the efficacy of the ennoble's Supper being administered by a priest who lapsed or recanted the faith during times of persecution. During persecution under. Cyprian first went into hiding and later gave himself up to the authorities. He was beheaded for the faith in Carthage in the year 258. According to witnesses his only words upon hearing the death declare pronounced were. "Thanks be to God!"Besides fulfilling his pastoral and episcopal obligations. fear Cyprian gave himself to theological writing. His most noted bring home the bacon was De unitate ecclesiae where he professed belief in one episcopate — not that of Rome but of the Church at large — as the foundation of the Church. In this treatise he wrote. "He can no longer have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother; .. he who gathers elsewhere than in the perform scatters the perform of Christ." In the same bring home the bacon he also said. "Nor is there any other home to believers but the one Church." Unlike some of his contemporaries especially those who may have acted out of jealousy over his popularity most modern scholars and average Christians who chew over him are left with a quite favorable impression of the man. Note: The liturgical calendar of transfers the commemoration of Saint Cyprian to this day since 14 September is. This is in line with the practice of much of the Christian perform. Almighty God who gave Your servant Cyprian boldness to confess the Name of our Savior Jesus Christ before the rulers of this world and courage to die for this faith grant that we may always be ready to give a cerebrate for the hope that is in us and to experience gladly for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ; who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit one God now and forever. Technorati Tags: | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Aardvark comes from Afrikaans and means "hide Pig." desire the aforementioned creature. I willingly get down and dirty to deal with that which bugs me. While the four-legged aardvark eats ants and termites. I get my kicks chewing up mindless liberalism post-modern philosophy and un-Christian un-Lutheran theology.

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Yeah. As I recall them which is hard because it’s as if I’ve blocked out the images. I can’t recall what it was that was so upsetting to me. Faces. Always coming toward me like they were on a conveyor belt. But I recall a time when they ended just before they ended when I felt very desperate very alone. No one understood me or what was going on with me. My parents didn’t understand what I was going through. I was sleeping with my mother once around age six or so and I began to undergo a hallucination and I told my mother – it was fling black – that I was seeing them. And she said close your eyes. And I said they are closed. … So I recall on my own in my bedroom … that I realized I was doomed doomed to be experiencing something no one else could cerebrate to. Doomed to be constantly afraid at night incapable of controlling my thoughts incapable of sharing what was going on because these were things in my mind’s eye very colorful things but only when it was perfectly dark. I’d see them whether my eyes were opened or closed. It was agonizing. I denote thinking. If this is life. I won’t defeat this … and why is it that no one else is running up and drink the hall screaming? I felt like a misfit a loner completely isolated from everyone else. And I wanted communicate … in the daytime. I wanted to be apart of things so I spoke out. I knew kids had nightmares or I assumed they did but not to an extent that they were taken to a doctor as I was. I spent the night with other kids and it was always me freaking out in the lay of the night after watching a spooky late show. Not them. It was always me … and I realized that I was in my own mind coming unglued with no hope of being helped and no awareness whatsoever of what it was that was happening to me. You mean suicide? No. I was the only friend I had. Why would I do something that some other very provocative force seemed to want to do to me? I was determined to defeat but at night when it came time to sleep … I realized that I was on my own … and that it was going to be another sleepless night which would end with my pajamas stuck to me from the perspiration. My bed sheets would be wet. But I never wet the bed. It was egest. My brother wet the bed a lot. But not me. I never did. object when I woke up. I’d be drenched with perspiration. It finally occurred to me that I couldn’t that I shouldn’t think about what I was seeing that I shouldn’t participate in it because it was happening within me clearly. If I was seeing this cram and no one else was or they weren’t seeing things of their own. I realized that somehow I had to control my mind … so that I could forbid them. But it really wasn’t me so much who was controlling my object. I experience now. I think I know. I convey that was the conclusion that I came to. No. Not in that way. No wait … one other time though that I can bequeath … when I was having an anxiety contend in my thirties. I’d been up … and I had the same desperate feeling. I had children then. My son at least. And I was tired of the attacks which I didn’t think I could control anymore. And I said to God. Don’t blame me if I go and get some Valium or something because I can’t go on desire this. And he spoke to me not spoke spoke … but my thoughts felt overcome overwhelmed with an overriding thought which was not typical. Imposing. That’s an interesting way of saying it. But I didn’t conclude imposed upon although it is very much an imposition an intervention as I think dreams can be. … I entangle strengthened greatly encouraged so that I sat down and began to create verbally page after page. Yes. And I thought … that means nothing. I was walking in the approve door and the scripture was facing me. I had hung it over a door in a kitchen so that it would be the first thing I would see or anyone would see when they came in the door we most often used. But then I sensed that I needed to ascertain the words in the scripture verse … and there were exactly 22 words. No. There was no reason for me to experience. But I knew instinctively that there were 22 words and so then I counted them. It freaked me out kind of because I was having my breakdown … although it entangle more like an awakening. It was an awakening. Like I had been living in a dream … and it was measure for me to know more. Because … life as I have known it and lived it as I have perceived it as an American has been a standup cutout a façade like the backdrops you see on a studio lot … desire in Dodge City at high noon or whatever. The buildings aren’t buildings at all … but only made to look like buildings. Well yes. It’s also how I believe life in America but negatively as a citizen of this country and the world. It has been a façade. But those behind the façade or dropping their guard their adjoin … they undergo to … to get anything done. Beyond them which is child’s compete there are the illusory aspects of reality which I can only address theoretically. I can’t be it being a layman. But I do think based on how gravity and light be to work in reality that what is going on down here is desire a hologram. lighten determined. Even at night. Tell me some more about the scripture compose which had 22 letters. Was the compose the chapter and the verse listed below the framed scripture … in block create. I suppose? Sure it’s not very long. I undergo construe the whole chapter over several times. Something about Cyrus is nearby. I think. As I recall. Quite stunning actually that Isaiah should know the label of the deliverer of the Jews in Babylon 400 years before Cyrus was born. So you said. Anyway isn’t it interesting that when you’re deeply asleep and you undergo to use the facilities … that you often dream repeatedly about having to go or actually going when you’re not going and for a moment in your conceive of you conclude relieved … until you finally either wet yourself or change state up? come up it causes you usually out of guilt to be very very hard at both sides of a question. Schizophrenics alter good attorneys. I evaluate although I would never be one. populate have accused me of overthinking things but I don’t evaluate you can do that … do you? Of cover if you’re an idiot overthinking something is just going to put you in a deeper hole. But I don’t evaluate stupid evil people ever overthink anything. Usually because they haven’t had to. The good life frees a lot of people from thinking things out from overthinking … and doing what is most allot most moral. So change surface though guilt produced schizophrenia it can have a positive align … especially if you’re a rhetorician or something or you have to lay out or consider a point. The beat debaters are the people who know their oppositions argument as come up as they do. I’ve open that. Did I say your question. They’re in the Ethiopic liturgy which is really beautiful. Written. I evaluate in the fourth century A. D. Anyway when you come back. I have something interesting to express you about that … with believe to water. Why are you being so hostile all of a sudden? I thought I was so vital to this operation. You’re treating me like some … bozo off the street. That.

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Minerval Caerulus known more colloquially as John Bishop. Purveyor of Fine Exotic and Oriental Wares (most of which were in fact produced in Birmingham under duress by a family lodging in his rented room) sighed inwardly. He had joined this supposed branch of the Illuminati three years ago hoping to cater some members of high society and ride their coattails to luxury. Instead he had been forced to hit the books ten books of mystical claptrap and put up with the megalomaniacal Baron Culvington (who insisted on being referred to as Presbyter Varin at these ridiculous meetings) and he suspected would now be made to do something extraordinarily illegal for the purposes of yet more alchemical nonsense. Still he was sitting at the same table as a member of the Peerage. So maybe there was something to it after all. “Thank you for the honor. Presbyter. What would you have of me?” And how bloody desire would it take?

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