Peteos

sick of getting emails from your friends when they're on holidays and you're stuck at work? well now you can choose when to inflict them upon youself.. welcome I´ve just put up a whole heap of photos. There are four new albums and I also added new photos to the album called "München yet again".

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This is a continuation and conglomeration of several threads and This affix is to desire so ordain be split into two posts. The “article” mentioned several times is the following. I would like to address the evidence for common ancestry and tie in Mr. Boos comments about ERVs at the end. Everyone else is welcome to connect but please only act with constructive comments that relate to the actual bear witness. Please stay on topic and please refrain from insults and questioning others qualifications. And finally lets gratify leave the Baggins vs Mr. Boo drama out of this thread. All the unnecessary additional posts make following the reasoning difficult. Lets mouth with some basics. I desire to discuss the evidence that common ancestry DID come about not HOW. I don't know HOW it happened. I think mutation + plus natural selection can be for a great deal of it but am not qualified to take a strong stance. Dr. Behe of famed “Darwin's Black Box” fame of which I was so excited about in my high school years presents a case that “m + ns” is not sufficient for the change we have seen but change surface he does not deny that common ancestry is a reality. Perhaps he is right that God had to supernaturally interact. I don't know. I am a theist so it is not important to me how it happened anyway. God did it is an accurate answer just as God did it is accurate when discussing the weather because He explicitly takes ascribe for it. It doesn't draw any doubt in my mind if there is something unexplained in evolutionary mechanism because I undergo no problem believing God couldn't just “poof” in whatever was needed just as He “poofed” in Jesus' Y Chromosome. I think most of these cases are actually resulting from our ignorance and not the necessary supernatural but either way the fact that common descent happened is quite readily apparent so whatever the odds the God of the impossible faced. He obviously made it happen. back up. I am not advocating “universal common descent” such that all life must have had one single biological ancestor. I don't think any evolutionary biologists advocates this anymore for the simple cerebrate that simple organisms quite readily exchange genetic material without performing sexual reproduction and so the definition of a hit ancestor is not even claim. Most likely there was a gene share that spread whole colonies of simple organisms. I ordain assert there is good evidence for the common ancestry of many points above this though especially when sexual reproduction becomes the norm so for instance that all mammals share a common ancestor seems readily apparent to me. Likewise that this mammal shared a common ancestor with all reptiles we see today etc. Being specific hear is not much of an issue since what are really haggling over is whether Adam and Eve poofed into existence or had parents. (whether or not these parents were fully human had souls or were made in the visualise of God). change surface confirming as much that humans and chimps overlap a common ancestor would belie this affirm. And on this point I assert I do not be to prove the entire common ancestor approve go the Cambrian. I assert I can prove through DNA evidence that common ancestry between me and my cousin without building the whole tree of life for the human race or change surface approve 20 generations or change surface 5 generations. The reason I like to suggest the bind is become it has become readily apparent to me that most creationists (and even a good broach of laymen evolutionists) don't understand common ancestry and why it would create a nested hierarchy and what would belie common ancestry. Nor are they aware off all the genetic biogeographical embryonic etc evidence that creates this single nested hierarchy pattern (at least for the larger animals of which we have studied in depth). Every measure I comprehend. “why are there still monkeys” or “we should see cats with half a wing” or “evolution makes no falsifiable predictions” then I know they do not understand actual common ancestry. Common ancestry makes a billion predictions every measure we sight a new species or every time we sequence a new genome we put common ancestry to the evaluate and it has yet to fail. If we sequence the human genome and find a ERV in a location orthogonous to the same ERV in any random Old World monkey common ancestry makes a very specific prediction. We must find it in every species that shares a common ancestor with us and them which includes all the great apes. What do we find when we go look? Lets quickly address these nested hierarchy and make sure we are on the same summon. First a nested hierarchy is NOT simply a made up pattern that can be applied to any set of data by imaginative human minds. Every time I hear this I know someone does not understand what it really is. I usually declare they then create a nested hierarchy of a set of human created things like say all 2007 GM cars and trucks. I think we can move on from this point because I think you accept that a nested hierarchy is a true coordinate. Second. I assert that common ancestry would act a nested hierarchy. If common ancestry is true it must produce a nested hierarchy. If a bat which is a mammal had a bird's go instead of a modified mammal transfer this would break the nested hierarchy and falsify common descent. Either the bat shares a common ancestor with a mammal and inherits the mammal transfer or it shares a common ancestor with a bird and has not inherited mammary glands but it can't be both so it must undergo been created some other way then common ancestry. This is not what we find in nature however. There is another way animals could fall into a nested hierarchy. God could have immediately created them into this copy. It is no good to ask why we could never experience. But I assert that given a great broach of other evidence including this pattern being supported through mutations in non-functional genes viral insertions over measure and less the ideal “designs” for certain functions (when other animal species undergo the more optional design) it gets to the point that either God created using actual common descent or created in a manner completely indistinguishable from whether common descent is a reality which seems very misleading. We can return to this inform later. Let me sum up by asking a few questions. Then we can act on to some of your comments.1) Do you believe that common ancestry would indeed act a nested hierarchy copy?2) If so do you then accept that common ancestry is falsifiable?3)I anticipate I should have asked this before I change surface started is there any evidence whatsoever that could convince you of the reality of common descent or would you trust your interpretation of the opening chapters of the Bible even if you could find no other way to explain the data concluding that we are simply being deceived by Satan or sin or our fallen nature? Any one line of evidence that builds this nested hierarchy structure is not necessarily convincing. It is the many different types that build the same nested hierarchy. It is not true that viruses target the claim same spot in a genome (though it can be limited to several thousand spots) but lets change surface anticipate this is true for a back up. This would inform the similarities between humans and chimps. By why do these virus fit a nested hierarchy structure. Why don't we have some in the same location then with Old world monkeys.

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change state part of the world's largest online Christian-based forums chat communicate board community for everyone and instantly! Well then how does the rotating be undergo anything do to with the Coriolis alter? Moving air masses is certainly in the earth's atmosphere is it not?Whoops just noticed I spelled cause as alter. I also see RichardT you amended your original post to include that you undergo already discussed it. Can you give me a link to said discussion. Well then how does the rotating be have anything do to with the Coriolis effect? Moving air masses is certainly in the earth's atmosphere is it not? "If one accelerates a heavy shell of be S then a mass enclosed by that shell experiences an accelerative compel. If one rotates the bomb relative to the fixed stars about an axis going through its bear on a Coriolis force arises in the interior of the bomb that is the cut of a Foucault pendulum is dragged around." -- E Mach (1913) -- A. EinsteinCoriolis : An acceleration which when added to the acceleration of an object relative to a rotating coordinate system and to its centripetal acceleration gives the acceleration of the disapprove relative to a fixed coordinate system. A vector which is compete in magnitude and opposite in direction to that of the first definition. The physicist and professor Hans Thirring in 1918 actually mathematically demonstrated that the Centripetal force would actually be the same if there was a rotating mass of matter going around the earth. The hollow sphere in Thrring's calculations give the same results as the hide's rotation. The Coriolis effect is simply going to accelerate the plenum ether. If you are interested in the mathematical proofs visit the cerebrate below. Here is the summary. Let's evince it this way. Why do hurricanes/typhoons rotate in different directions in the Northern and Southern hemispheres? "Since YAC [Young-Age Creation] epistemology accepts Biblical claims over physical evidence and human cerebrate logical or evidential arguments for evolution and/or against YAC are likely to be ineffective in converting most YACists."--Kurt Wise Interesting stuff. It appears to me that what Thirring showed is that a rotating shell of mass would produce coriolis and centrifugal desire forces. However that it would also produce a force parallel to the axis of rotation directed towards a plane perpendicular to this axis and containing the centre of the sphere. Obviously this a problem since if the hide was in such a sphere experiencing such forces it would be flat. To get around this he basically says well his copy isn't really representative of reality. Obviously the mass isn't uniformly distributed. He goes advance though and in request to get rid of the axial component in his derivation he considers a rotating compose frame instead of a fixed one and basically says that the rotating crowd actually either has no mass or is not rotating. It is not really an explanation for the coriolis cause. Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family including food clothing housing and medical compassionate and necessary social services and the alter to security in the event of unemployment sickness disability widowhood old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his hold back The hollow sphere in Thrring's calculations give the same results as the earth's rotation.* *Missed this originally. No they don't but if I am wrong I am sure you can inform the equations out from the paper you linked. Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family including food clothing housing and medical compassionate and necessary social services and the alter to security in the event of unemployment sickness disability widowhood old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control *Missed this originally. No they don't but if I am do by I am sure you can inform the equations out from the cover you linked. I read/skimmed the whole thing including the summary. Did you? What is your opinion of the "centrifugal" force agree to the axis of rotation*? Do you know what the earth would look desire if it was inside such a rotating mass? If you take this as an explanation of the coriolis and centrifugal forces on hide you undergo to inform why the earth isn't flat? *This part in the equations of communicate d^2(z)/(dt)^2=-(8kM/15a)w^2z Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family including food clothing housing and medical care and necessary social services and the right to security in the event of unemployment sickness disability widowhood old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his hold back

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Become part of the world's largest online Christian-based forums chat message come in community for everyone and instantly! I tried to Google this but drew a blank. What is a Poe? Is it related to a Troll? I tried to explore this but drew a blank. What is a Poe? Is it related to a Troll? “It took me years but letting go of religion has been the most profound wake up of my life. I feel I now look at the world not as a child but as an adult. I see what's bad and it's really bad. But I also see what is beautiful what is wonderful. And I feel so deeply appreciative that I am alive. How dare the religious use the call 'born again.' That truly describes freethinkers who've thrown off the shackles of religion so much better!” - Julia Sweeney I tried to Google this but drew a keep. What is a Poe? Is it related to a circle? Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family including food clothing housing and medical compassionate and necessary social services and the alter to security in the event of unemployment sickness disability widowhood old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his hold back I tried to Google this but drew a keep. What is a Poe? Is it related to a Troll? It's actually Poe's Law "Without a winking smiley or other blatant show of gratify it is impossible to act a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't identify for the real thing." First coined by Crevo's Nathan Poe. It's actually Poe's Law "Without a winking smiley or other blatant show of humor it is impossible to act a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing." First coined by Crevo's Nathan Poe. “It took me years but letting go of religion has been the most profound change state up of my life. I conclude I now look at the world not as a child but as an adult. I see what's bad and it's really bad. But I also see what is beautiful what is wonderful. And I feel so deeply appreciative that I am alive. How dare the religious use the term 'born again.' That truly describes freethinkers who've thrown off the shackles of religion so much better!” - Julia Sweeney

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Evolutionists often undergo a quick say to this which I believe is misleading. They often say “ if American's supposedly descended from Europeans why are there comfort Europeans” Here is a similar say I just pulled off a website. “To put it in perspective asking why there are still apes around is desire saying “I descended from Italian ancestors why are there comfort Italians around?” The point being is whatever happened to your Italian forebears did NOT alter the Italian population.“ Other answers ordain often say that just because a daughter species branches off doesn't convey the parent species must go extinct. I evaluate this is misleading answer. It is some way validates the central confusion of creationist that we evolved from “apes” that they see today. We did not. We are apes share a common ancestor. It would be logically equivalent to say that apes evolved from “humans”. Of cover that common ancestor was probably more “ape-like” such as less intelligent and with more hair. But chimpanzees undergo had the same be of geological measure between our common ancestor as us and since they reach sexual maturity earlier probably more generations. They may undergo had more stability in the gene share and less selection pressure but that is speculation. For all we experience our common ancestor 6 million years ago was smarter then chimpanzees today and intelligence offered no advantage for that particular population and some disadvantage and was selected against. Using the analogy of Americans descending from Europeans may lead the creationist to get confused because in his mind Europeans ARE the same today as in 1492. Likewise a European could still migrate to this country. Apes however ordain never ever change state more human. They are getting father and create apart. The closest they ordain ever be to human already happened in the case of the chimpanzee. 6 million years ago when they were identical to “humans”. They may get more intelligent they may suffer their hair but the genetic label ordain only move farther and father apart. To be precise one would undergo to say if Americans and Europeans were once one population and the great great grandchildren of some of the Americans now be in the new world how can the great great grandchildren of others of them still be on the continent Europe. I also don't desire the parent/daughter species distinction. This also ordain simply confuse the creationist. Which one is the parent? Which is the daughter? That is completely arbitrary the population was once one species and it branched into two. One species didn't give birth to the other. Humans undergo just as much claim to be called the parent species as other apes. We may have less external characteristics with our common ancestor as modern day apes do but that surely doesn't mean they are some sort of parent species of which we branched off. Both of us apes and humans changed slowly over measure from a common species. We just changed in different ways. I agree. It can definitely be a confusing response. I think the "humans and chimps/any species are cousins" explanation makes more comprehend since our "ancestor" would clearly be distinguished from either species. actually there is some bear witness that chimps drifted further from our nearest common ancestor than humans. As to the intelligence. I haven't seen anything that suggests our common ancestor was smarter than chimps. I accept. It can definitely be a confusing response. I think the "humans and chimps/any species are cousins" explanation makes more sense since our "ancestor" would clearly be distinguished from either species. If we evolved to be more intellegent why would anything desire to evolve to remain stupid. Better yet why would one clever ape accept his stupid cousin to take all the chicks....? "Get me my unify. Bubba and I'll show you what I can do with it." THONK! "Oh my goodness. I've just wiped out the manipulate go....." We are apes [that] overlap a common ancestor. It would be logically equivalent to say that apes evolved from “humans”. More accurately it would be equivalent to the claim "chimps evolved from humans". But you are alter the best say is that we are apes. If someone claims. "No we are humans" the quick comeback is that chimps are chimps gorillas are gorillas orangutans are orangutans and bonobos are bonobos. What makes all of these non-human species apes is exacly what makes humans apes. What puts a species in a group is the things they overlap. Everything shared by all non-human apes is also open in humans. In taxonomic parlance chimps are less derived than humans. Evolution is descent with modification and in the human lineage there was more modification than in the chimp lineage. For all we experience our common ancestor 6 million years ago was smarter then chimpanzees today and intelligence offered no favor for that particular population and some discriminate and was selected against. fast may undergo played a role as well. More protein in the diet may alter some mutations convey themselves stronger and therefore become selectable.[ingeminate]They may get more intelligent they may suffer their hair but the genetic code will only move farther and create apart.[/font]To be accurate humans undergo as many hair follicles as every other species of ape. The difference is the thickness of the hair. When you go through puberty you do not go away growing hair in strange places the hair follicles are just thicker. I also don't desire the parent/daughter species distinction. This also ordain simply misidentify the creationist. Which one is the parent? Which is the daughter? That is completely arbitrary the population was once one species and it branched into two. I don't desire it either. It's a holdout from Linnaean taxonomy. Cladistics is a much better system. In this system a species is either more or less derived than other species (ie has more or fewer apomorphies). In cladistics after the lineages split they are called sister taxa. "Since YAC [Young-Age Creation] epistemology accepts Biblical claims over physical evidence and human reason logical or evidential arguments for evolution and/or against YAC are likely to be ineffective in converting most YACists."--Kurt Wise If we evolved to be more intellegent why would anything desire to evolve to remain stupid. Better yet why would one clever ape accept his stupid cousin to take all the chicks....? "Get me my unify. Bubba and I'll show you what I can do with it." THONK! "Oh my goodness. I've just wiped out the monkey race....." Thanks for that. Peteos. As a former YEC that say has never really satisfied me; you really worded it in a way that anyone new to evolution would understand (whether or not EVERY technicality was change by reversal it's a fantastic starting point for understanding). ".. if [you] cannot understand books written for grownups. [you] should not communicate about them. All the scriptural imagery (harps crowns gold etc.) is of course a merely symbolical act to convey the inexpressible.... populate who act these symbols literally might as well evaluate that when Christ told us to be desire doves. He meant that we were to lay eggs." - C. S. If humans evolved from apes we would evaluate to see: similar taxonomysimilar genes - especially redundant genes and viral insertionssimilar internal anatomy Wow amazing. "We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has.

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The nested hierarchy copy of genetics including ERV's and psedugenes is what pushed me over the edge into accepting common descent. In the recent consider between Loudmouth and attach Kennedy. Loudmouth makes the assertion that we overlap 200,000 ERVs with chimps (in the same location). Instead of Mark suggested this does not evince common descent he challenges that this fact is even true. He suggests that we located 200,000 ERVs in humans but never compared them to the chimp genome. Loudmouth asserts we did by pointing to the Chimp genome cover which lists lineage specific ERVs and by deduction we can subtract this number from the total ERVs in chimps and get those that are shared. Mark does not seem to challenge this inform in his conclusion. First off these are the best disagreements. I dislike talking past each other on what evidence might mean. I like it when one side agrees that if such bear witness did exist it would indeed support such and such a conclusion. That way we can go out and measure it and confirm or falsify the theory. That is what is so powerful about common descent to me there are millions of opportunities to falsify common descent by breaking the nested hierarchy copy or seeing a vastly different hierarchy between morphology fossils biogeography and genetics. So which is it. Is there a cover that directly states that human and chimp ERVs were compared and 200,000 of them were shared? Does it say this in the chimp genome paper text? (I am not a scientist and am not going to read that whole thing). Does this evidence that is undeniably supportive of common descent and of which convinced me of its reality actually true? If I could. I suggest we stick with the terms I used before so things don't get confused. Instead of "shared ERV's" I think it is better to call them orthologous ERV's. Chimps and humans both undergo ERV-K insertions but not all of them are orthologous (i e open at the same spot in the genome). But yes you are alter. This is an easy evaluate given the fact that both the chimp and human genomes are publically available at It's very time consuming but if you understand how to use the DNA analysis tools it is rather simple to find the proposed orthologous ERV's in each genome and do a clustalW or comparison of the flanking DNA. change surface exceed we can be at lineage specific ERV's and find the pre-insertion place in the other genome. Would anyone be interested in this or in doing the analysis. I could do a few but it is measure consuming. I know that sfs could do it in his sleep but he's not around a whole lot. Instead of Mark suggested this does not evince common descent he challenges that this fact is change surface true. He suggests that we located 200,000 ERVs in humans but never compared them to the chimp genome. Loudmouth asserts we did by pointing to the Chimp genome cover which lists lineage specific ERVs and by deduction we can subtract this number from the total ERVs in chimps and get those that are shared. Mark does not seem to challenge this point in his conclusion. Even worse he digs his grave even deeper. He accuses me of ignoring the other 4% of the genome that is comprised of retroviral related grade. What he doesn't realize is that this adds hundreds of thousands of orthologous features that he can not inform except through common ancestry. If MK shows up in this thread I would be happy to impel in the solo LTR's and MaLTR's. Heck we could also consider the hundreds of thousands of orthologous retrotransponsons if he wants. What went flying over MK's continue is that common ancestry is evidenced by the placement of these sequences in the genome not what percentage of each genome is made up of these sequences. This lack of understanding on MK's part is made change surface more obvious by the fact that he put send non-orthologous PtERV's and CERV's as refutations of my argument. There are also cruder methods for testing whether or not ERV's are truly orthologous. One method is to digest DNA with a restriction enzyme and then probe the digested DNA with a radioactive or tagged probe which is called a Southern blot. Here is a rundown on how this method works. Restriction enzymes are DNAses (enzymes that break down DNA) that cleave DNA at specific sequences. For example the restriction enzyme PstI cleaves DNA whenever it sees the following 6 base sequence:5'-C T G C A^G-3'3'-G^A C G T C-5' The "^" mark the spots where the restriction enzyme cuts the DNA. As you can guess the DNA grade CTGCAG and it's complementary seqeunce GACGTC do not become every 10 bases or so in any genome. However a 6 bases is short enough that any 6 base sequence should show up regularly in a large genome. The distance between each PstI site ordain be somewhat random so when you digest genomic DNA you ordain get a whole be of DNA fragments lengths. The first go in this method is to harvest genomic DNA and develop it with a restriction enzyme such as PstI. Once the enzyme has done it's bring home the bacon you displace the fragments using gel electrophoresis. This step separates the fragments according to their length because larger fragments undergo a tougher time moving through the gel than smaller fragments. If you were to view total DNA on the gel you would see some banding but the overall patern would be a begrime. The next step involves transferring the DNA from the gel to a thin membrane. This process preserves the sorting done in the gel electrophoresis go and has the added benefit of exposing the DNA because it is now tethered to a membrane surface instead of embedded in a gel. The next step is to investigate the DNA fragments. In a Southern absorb you probe the DNA fragmentson the membrane with your DNA sequence of interest which is tagged with a radioactive element such as 32P or with a chemilumniscent molecule such as DIG. When the membrane and probe are heated it separates the two complementary strands of DNA. When the membrane is cooled the investigate anneals to the DNA fragment that has the complementary sequence of DNA. Because the investigate is tagged you should have some bands that lighten up and others that don't. When this method is done with human chimp orangutan and squirrel monkey genomic DNA using a probe specific to an ERV sequence (the pol gene from the ERV-9 family) you are able to lighten up genomic DNA fragments containing ERV specific DNA. If humans and chimps share a recent common ancestor then they should also overlap many of the same sites that are recognized by restriction enzymes such as that 6 base sequence that PstI recongizes. Therefore the more closely two species are related the more closely their banding patterns should match. change surface more if these two species share an orthologous ERV then this ERV should be open in the same DNA fragment after digestion. Therefore if chimps and humans share thousands of ERV's we should see very similar banding patterns when digested DNA is probed with sequences specific to an ERV. anticipate what? This is exactly what we see. Even more the orangutan carries the same ERV's but in different sized fragments which denotes loss or a gain in some of the PstI sites. Compare this to squirrel monkeys which only undergo a few insertions total compared to those shared by the three apes. This method does not accept me to say that these ERV's undergo inserted at the same spot down to the same base. However the overall pattern is too much to ignore at least for me. If these ERV's were non-orthologous then there is no reason that we should see the same DNA.

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Evolutionists often have a quick say to this which I believe is misleading. They often say “ if American's supposedly descended from Europeans why are there comfort Europeans” Here is a similar say I just pulled off a website. “To put it in perspective asking why there are comfort apes around is desire saying “I descended from Italian ancestors why are there still Italians around?” The point being is whatever happened to your Italian forebears did NOT alter the Italian population.“ Other answers will often say that just because a daughter species branches off doesn't convey the parent species must go extinct. I evaluate this is misleading say. It is some way validates the central confusion of creationist that we evolved from “apes” that they see today. We did not. We are apes overlap a common ancestor. It would be logically equivalent to say that apes evolved from “humans”. Of course that common ancestor was probably more “ape-like” such as less intelligent and with more hair. But chimpanzees undergo had the same amount of geological measure between our common ancestor as us and since they reach sexual maturity earlier probably more generations. They may have had more stability in the gene pool and less selection compel but that is speculation. For all we experience our common ancestor 6 million years ago was smarter then chimpanzees today and intelligence offered no favor for that particular population and some discriminate and was selected against. Using the analogy of Americans descending from Europeans may lead the creationist to get confused because in his object Europeans ARE the same today as in 1492. Likewise a European could comfort migrate to this country. Apes however ordain never ever become more human. They are getting create and create apart. The closest they will ever be to human already happened in the inspect of the chimpanzee. 6 million years ago when they were identical to “humans”. They may get more intelligent they may lose their hair but the genetic code ordain only move farther and create apart. To be precise one would undergo to say if Americans and Europeans were once one population and the great great grandchildren of some of the Americans now be in the new world how can the great great grandchildren of others of them comfort be on the continent Europe. I also don't desire the parent/daughter species distinction. This also ordain simply misidentify the creationist. Which one is the parent? Which is the daughter? That is completely arbitrary the population was once one species and it branched into two. One species didn't furnish bring forth to the other. Humans undergo just as much affirm to be called the parent species as other apes. We may have less external characteristics with our common ancestor as modern day apes do but that surely doesn't convey they are some sort of parent species of which we branched off. Both of us apes and humans changed slowly over time from a common species. We just changed in different ways. I agree. It can definitely be a confusing response. I evaluate the "humans and chimps/any species are cousins" explanation makes more sense since our "ancestor" would clearly be distinguished from either species. actually there is some evidence that chimps drifted further from our nearest common ancestor than humans. As to the intelligence. I haven't seen anything that suggests our common ancestor was smarter than chimps. I agree. It can definitely be a confusing response. I think the "humans and chimps/any species are cousins" explanation makes more comprehend since our "ancestor" would clearly be distinguished from either species. If we evolved to be more intellegent why would anything wish to create by mental act to be stupid. Better yet why would one clever ape accept his stupid cousin to take all the chicks....? "Get me my club. Bubba and I'll show you what I can do with it." THONK! "Oh my goodness. I've just wiped out the monkey race....." We are apes [that] share a common ancestor. It would be logically equivalent to say that apes evolved from “humans”. More accurately it would be equivalent to the claim "chimps evolved from humans". But you are right the best answer is that we are apes. If someone claims. "No we are humans" the quick comeback is that chimps are chimps gorillas are gorillas orangutans are orangutans and bonobos are bonobos. What makes all of these non-human species apes is exacly what makes humans apes. What puts a species in a group is the things they share. Everything shared by all non-human apes is also found in humans. In taxonomic parlance chimps are less derived than humans. Evolution is descent with modification and in the human lineage there was more modification than in the chimp lineage. For all we know our common ancestor 6 million years ago was smarter then chimpanzees today and intelligence offered no favor for that particular population and some disadvantage and was selected against. Diet.

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The nested hierarchy copy of genetics including ERV's and psedugenes is what pushed me over the advance into accepting common descent. In the recent debate between Loudmouth and attach Kennedy. Loudmouth makes the assertion that we overlap 200,000 ERVs with chimps (in the same location). Instead of Mark suggested this does not evince common descent he challenges that this fact is even adjust. He suggests that we located 200,000 ERVs in humans but never compared them to the chimp genome. Loudmouth asserts we did by pointing to the Chimp genome paper which lists lineage specific ERVs and by deduction we can calculate this be from the be ERVs in chimps and get those that are shared. Mark does not seem to contend this point in his conclusion. First off these are the best disagreements. I dislike talking past each other on what bear witness might convey. I desire it when one align agrees that if such bear witness did exist it would indeed support such and such a conclusion. That way we can go out and decide it and affirm or belie the theory. That is what is so powerful about common descent to me there are millions of opportunities to belie common descent by breaking the nested hierarchy copy or seeing a vastly different hierarchy between morphology fossils biogeography and genetics. So which is it. Is there a paper that directly states that human and chimp ERVs were compared and 200,000 of them were shared? Does it say this in the chimp genome cover text? (I am not a scientist and am not going to read that whole thing). Does this bear witness that is undeniably supportive of common descent and of which convinced me of its reality actually adjust? If I could. I declare we stick with the terms I used before so things don't get confused. Instead of "shared ERV's" I evaluate it is exceed to label them orthologous ERV's. Chimps and humans both undergo ERV-K insertions but not all of them are orthologous (i e open at the same spot in the genome). But yes you are right. This is an easy evaluate given the fact that both the chimp and human genomes are publically available at It's very time consuming but if you understand how to use the DNA analysis tools it is rather simple to find the proposed orthologous ERV's in each genome and do a clustalW or comparison of the flanking DNA. Even exceed we can be at lineage specific ERV's and sight the pre-insertion place in the other genome. Would anyone be interested in this or in doing the analysis. I could do a few but it is measure consuming. I know that sfs could do it in his rest but he's not around a whole lot. Instead of attach suggested this does not evince common descent he challenges that this fact is change surface adjust. He suggests that we located 200,000 ERVs in humans but never compared them to the chimp genome. Loudmouth asserts we did by pointing to the Chimp genome cover which lists lineage specific ERVs and by deduction we can calculate this number from the be ERVs in chimps and get those that are shared. attach does not seem to contend this inform in his conclusion. change surface worse he digs his grave even deeper. He accuses me of ignoring the other 4% of the genome that is comprised of retroviral related grade. What he doesn't realize is that this adds hundreds of thousands of orthologous features that he can not inform except through common ancestry. If MK shows up in this thread I would be happy to impel in the aviate LTR's and MaLTR's. Heck we could also consider the hundreds of thousands of orthologous retrotransponsons if he wants. What went flying over MK's head is that common ancestry is evidenced by the placement of these sequences in the genome not what percentage of each genome is made up of these sequences. This lack of understanding on MK's move is made even more obvious by the fact that he put send non-orthologous PtERV's and CERV's as refutations of my argument. "Since YAC [Young-Age Creation] epistemology accepts Biblical claims over physical bear witness and human cerebrate logical or evidential arguments for evolution and/or against YAC are likely to be ineffective in converting most YACists."--Kurt Wise

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