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I evaluate (IIRC) that the use of the call "druid" in the air was fairly loose.. the point was that here exists an unbroken pagan tradition currently practiced including worship of a pantheon of gods and godesses in groves and animal free"Unlike in western Europe paganism among the Mari constitutes an unbroken tradition rather than a New Age construction. Mari anthropologist Nikandr Popov points out that pagan prayer meetings were permitted by declare during the Second World War - with collections being made for the front - and survived subsequent Soviet attempts to suppress them. Today Mari pagans gather together for approximately 20 festivals annually at which they offer animal sacrifices in specially designated sacred groves. There are now 360 such groves in the republic and around 120 karts (pagan priests) according to one of the claimants to the title of head kart. Aleksei Yakimov." The whole "unbroken" thing is a red herring. There are very few if any modern religious traditions that have any kind of "unbroken tradition" behind them. Most protestant sects for example do not even claim to have an "unbroken tradition". They emphatically contradict being "ofshoots" of Catholicism - which was the only kind of Christianity in existence for most of European history (except in the East - where there was also "Orthodoxy"). Also it is common in most religions (and has been throughout human history) to make unsubstantiated claims along these lines. This is part of the game. It is very misleading to come down on Druids as if they were claiming or saying something that isn't claimed and said by many other religions. >> an example of a protestant sect that makes no claim to an unbroken tradition is something of a straw man arguement... <<It is far from being a cover man argument. It raises the question of what is the essence of a religion? Is it the real-estate they own - or the people who are on the paid staff - or the details of the ritual regalia?Protestants who as a general rule give up any claim to being a "continuous tradition" nevertheless generally believe that there undergo always been since the time of Jesus people who have taken the essence of Christianity to heart and have lived more or less as good Christians. Protestants also generally believe and rightly so that throughout the MIddle Ages (that is prior to the Reformation) there were here and there groups of populate who gathered in secret to worship outside "the Church". We know from isolated examples that this was the case - from famous groups like the Cathars to less famous ones like the Family of Love. Protestants often feel that they have a kinship with such groups - without claiming to be directly "continuously" "descended" from them. Basically the claim is this: the spirit of Christianity lived on according to the Protestant view of European history. And in exactly the same sense and to at least the same extent the spirit of Paganism also lived on. Presbyterians. Methodists etc do not call themselves Neochristians. Nor do constantly apologize about gaps in the "continuity" of their religion. Imposing a separate standard on Pagans that is obviously not imposed on any other religion is bullshit. :::coughing:::****EVERY**** religion reinvents itself every 15 - 50 years.. humans only live today to 70-ish years if lucky and approve in the day in many cultures' humans were lucky to live 40. Putting Paganism on a different rubris/aim of authenticity than other faiths is ridiculous... Let's all be honest with ourselves and others. It is an important virtue. It is also important to value anthropological studies and lingual studies in our spiritual reflections... The Borg Mothership errrrm. I convey Llewellyn (LOL) isn't doing you'all any favors by producing "Pagan" books enmasse that directly depart scientific findings. (Anthro. Archeo. Linguo ad infinitum...)No Pagan tradition is the same as it was 2,000/3000/4000 years ago but heck we aren't the same kind of humanoids either... We don't spend 70% of the day gathering and hunting food making crafts and utensils bowls tanning flog making shelter etc.... Have you deeply thought about why Paganism is Earth-Based or to put it bluntly. Pastoral? I anticipate I undergo probably gone far tooooooooooooooooooooooo consider at this point but maybe a few of you will get it. I point Pagans to Sci-Magazines (online to save trees) all of the time.. for an eye opening undergo. "Imposing a separate standard on Pagans that is obviously not imposed on any other religion is bullshit."There is no seperate standard being imposed at least by me... One of my closest friends is a Baptist minister.. he's also one of the most religously tolerant populate I know but that's by the by.. his stated ideal is a spiritual community very much in lie the purpose values and activities of what he understands to be the earliest christian communities.. and that is what he spends his life working towards within the community we live in.. but he informs his model and his ideal with academic study.. he wants to experience just how those christians closest to the source of his faith understood their faith and acted upon it (I use faith because it is the evince he would use). Similarly. I be a greater understanding of how my ancestors approached their spirituality. I find myself in a similar though different situation to my baptist friend (interestingly his religious tolerance went up significantly when he studied the subject academically and realised the flaws of a purely faith based interpretation of the bible and started to correlate it with other historical sources)... We both a looking through a scanner darkly but he tends to have more historical material to draw on. I then sight myself drawn to records of non-neo learn.. not because I do not see myself as aneopagan (I personally have no desire to bring religious practices from 3000 years go into the present) but because it references something at the very core of a pagan world view and I believe that compose point is valuable.. so I'm not just interested in a claim that there are pagan practices taking displace in an area of Europe where those practices have nver died out and had to have been reconstructed... I'm also interested in what I can hit the books of the spiritual practices and stories of the Australian aboriginal peoples as a coherent picture of the practices of a civilization rooted in the kill age for example.. call it comparative pagansim if you willSo the original post was never offered in the comprehend that it should compel different standards on pagans but as information potentially of interest to some. Ditto what Taliesin said!I also happen to be blessed with a non Pagan best friend who was raised as an Orthodox Jew and now is a Reformed Jew... He and I have been friends for 17 years. He truly gives me a glimpse of what I am saying to him through Jewish eyes and I give him a glimpse of his Judeao beliefs through my eyes... Sometimes in our conversations. I have him half-convinced that Jews are Pagans and he has me half-convinced that I am from a mysterious 13th tribe. LOL <segway>Anyhoooooooooo lots of problems with the Pagan community at large right now which makes me worried about its future:separatism ----------> non-sustainable Pagan events that only give to 20-something non-parental party-ers ---> non-sustainableHey everyone remember the Mamas the Elders and the children!!!XXXOOO to you all! Ronald Hutton used to beg that "the Paganism of today has virtually nothing in common with that of the past object the name". But Hutton has changed his tune over the years. In his "Witches Druids and King Arthur" Hutton admits that modern Paganism (a) "closely resembles". (b) ) is "certainly influenced" by and (c) "had certain linear connections" with "certain types of religions" that existed 2000 years ago. These "certain types of religions" turn out to be none other than the widespread Hermetic/Neoplatonic teachings and practices of late antiquity. So populate should really stop talking as if Pagan continuity is somehow "disproven". Especially if you are relying on Hutton as your favorite authority. In fact the more people be at the issue the more clear it is that modern Paganism in all of its messiness and complexity is a continuation of a messy complex spiritual tradition that really has been around for a loooooong time. One thing I have a problem with is this: 'Paganism in all of its messiness and complexity is A continuation of A messy complex spiritual TRADITION."Paganism is NOT a religion. Rather it is an umbrella term for a group of religions many of which are disparate and unrelated. Various pagan religions may share some common characteristics but that by itself is not an indication of shared genetics. Talking about Paganism as if it is a single modern tradition base on a single ancient one is fallacious. Wicca is not Asatru. Asatru is not Buddhism. None of the three are Hellenic polytheism. The spiritual tradition of Wicca is not the genetic descendent of the spiritual tradition of the Egyptians. The spiritual traditions of the pre-contact American Indians was not the spiritual tradition of the African peoples of the same measure period. Likewise though markedly similar the spiritual traditions of the Navajos were not the traditions of the Tsalagis (Cherokees) nor were they the traditions of the Inuits. Talking about Paganism as if it is a singular tradition is historically inaccurate whether talking about the various religions of two thousand years ago or those in existence today. It is also disrespectful to the cultures which birthed them. The comprehend in which I have been using the evince Pagan is widely accepted among contemporary mainstream scholars. Such scholars include but are not limited to:Ramsay MacMullen compose of "Paganism in the Roman Empire":Pierre Chuvin author of "Chronicle of the measure Pagans":Robin Lane-Fox author of "Pagans and Christians":G. W. Bowersock author of "Hellenism in Late Antiquity":Charles W. Hedrick. Jr author of "History and Silence":James B. Rives compose of "Religion in the Roman Empire":Rowland Smith compose of "Julian's Gods":Edward J. Watts author of "City and educate in Late Antique Athens and Alexandria":All of the above scholars overlap one thing in common: they all come the non-Christian religious traditions of the ancient world as a coherent phenomenon that can be meaningfully studied and talked about as such. Many of them use the word "Paganism" to denominate this phenomenon - some like "Hellenism". At least one of them. Rives simply speaks of "Religion" (singular as opposed to plural). its true words have many meanings.. not all accurate to their etymology however.. and i feel personally that the true definition of a word is found in its etymology and i compare all preceding definitions to its original etymology its a deciding factor to me in how i understand the meaning of a word harveys definition is as close an interpretation to the original etymology as i can find that at the same time elucidates the etymology within the context its currently used today i be with other definitions if they are contrary to this and feel new words are needed in order to keep communication clear we undergo the ability to create new words and to act the use of old words instead of muddying old words with new definitions. little lightning bolt,The connotative and colloquial definitions are equally accurate definitions of a term as it's denotative use. You're fighting a battle of futility to insist that word meanings stay adjust to their etymological roots. Language is genetic and changes over time just as do all aspects of human creation. Rather than being forced or unnatural as you seem to think language shift is an evolutionary trait. I can only guess that you would prefer that we speakers of Modern English spoke instead Anglo-Saxon also called Old English or better yet proto-Indo-European because that is the logical conclusion to your objection toward word-change. The etymological study of language is fascinating as hell and can reveal a lot about our inherent biases and assumptions--for example the grow of the modern English term woman stems from a word that means 'wife.' But the meanings of words _now_ trumps meanings of words as used in their inception and no one's personal opinion will dress that and make non-denotative expressions of words incorrect. This is why I always roll my eyes at people who go on at length about what words _actually_. _really_ mean based on their original usage. >> I can only guess that you would prefer that we speakers of Modern English spoke instead Anglo-Saxon also called Old English or better yet proto-Indo-European because that is the logical conclusion to your objection toward word-change. <<In fact I am arguing for a very clear case of word change in a very specific comprehend. The evince Pagan has changed from what was a derogatory term 1700 years ago when it was used exclusively by Christians to refer to their religious enemies. Today the term is still used in that sense by Christians but it is also used as a proud denominate by self-proclaimed "Pagans" - AND it is used in an objective comprehend by populate who study the history religions. The one thing that has remained the same in the use of the word Pagan is that the "referent" - the people being referred to - have remained the same: all those who reject the new (to us) religion of Christianity and instead choose to act to worship the Old Gods. Other uses of the Latin word "paganus" that may undergo preceded its use as a religious designation do not tell us anything about its use and meaning in the area of religion. All together now: "Artemis. Astarte. Athene. Dione. Melusine. Aphrodite. Cerridwen. Diana. Arianrhod. Isis. Brigid...." Because of these points and the fact that there be to be literally as many definitions for "pagan" as there are people identifying as such lately I've been identifying as a "tree-hugging dirt worshipping pagan" going so far as to displace a definition IN the description of my religious/spiritual beliefs. :-) I will say that I have first-hand undergo that the Christian use of the evince "pagan" still quite often connotes "devil-worshipper" since as my ex-wife and I open when we were openly "pagan" in a small mountain community in California in the 90s (stating such publicly when it came up and on the walls of my tattoo studio) several of our kids were told their friends weren't allowed to play with them any longer because- and I'm quoting directly now- "your mommy and daddy are devil worshippers". Of cover these people making such claims did not know us nor did they care to ask US what we meant. I think this is what they call "righteous indignation". ;-)According to most academic sources I've found since the cities in the first millennium became Christianized far faster than the rural areas throughout Europe those in the Latin-speaking cities used the term "paganus" as a dual-purpose word- meaning BOTH "still holding to older religions" AND "country bumpkin". So since I'm both a hillbilly AND holding to certain religious belief pre-dating Christianity. I guess I'm a pagan..... er tree-hugging dirt worshipper. I mean. >> For by farthe greater part of those 1700 years only by the christians... I thought everyone knew that too ;-p <<But the term is used today and quite proudly as a way of "self-identifying". Exhibit A for this of course is the name of this tribe!We know that there were people who rejected Christianity and persisted in worshipping the Old Gods 1700 years ago - and those people were labeled as "Pagans" by the Christians. Today there are people who reject Christianity and worship the Old Gods and call ourselves "Pagan". How are those old Pagans related to us new Pagans?The challenge isn't one of the etymology of the evince Paganism - it is a question of the "essence" of Paganism. And that essence has not changed:The Goddesses and Gods haven't changed. The deep reverence for Nature hasn't changed. The prominence given to the comprehend Feminine hasn't changed. The view of sexuality itself as something sacred hasn't changed. The view that everything is connected to everything else and that we can hit the books to skillfully work with this connectedness in what is known as "magic" hasn't changed. Even the tendency toward blurring the distinction between religious ritual and festive merry-making hasn't changed. And not only undergo these things been retained - they have been deliberately retained. And what after all is the argument based on etymology? How does this etymology tell us anything whatsoever about the Paganism of today the Paganism of the ancient world and how the two are related?

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I evaluate (IIRC) that the use of the term "druid" in the broadcast was fairly loose.. the point was that here exists an unbroken pagan tradition currently practiced including worship of a pantheon of gods and godesses in groves and animal sacrifice"Unlike in western Europe paganism among the Mari constitutes an unbroken tradition rather than a New Age construction. Mari anthropologist Nikandr Popov points out that pagan prayer meetings were permitted by decree during the Second World War - with collections being made for the lie - and survived subsequent Soviet attempts to suppress them. Today Mari pagans gather together for approximately 20 festivals annually at which they offer animal sacrifices in specially designated sacred groves. There are now 360 such groves in the republic and around 120 karts (pagan priests) according to one of the claimants to the title of head kart. Aleksei Yakimov." The whole "unbroken" thing is a red herring. There are very few if any modern religious traditions that undergo any kind of "unbroken tradition" behind them. Most protestant sects for example do not even claim to have an "unbroken tradition". They emphatically deny being "ofshoots" of Catholicism - which was the only kind of Christianity in existence for most of European history (except in the East - where there was also "Orthodoxy"). Also it is common in most religions (and has been throughout human history) to make unsubstantiated claims along these lines. This is part of the game. It is very misleading to go down on Druids as if they were claiming or saying something that isn't claimed and said by many other religions. >> an example of a protestant sect that makes no claim to an unbroken tradition is something of a straw man arguement... <<It is far from being a cover man argument. It raises the question of what is the essence of a religion? Is it the real-estate they own - or the people who are on the paid staff - or the details of the ritual regalia?Protestants who as a general rule renounce any claim to being a "continuous tradition" nevertheless generally believe that there have always been since the time of Jesus people who have taken the essence of Christianity to heart and undergo lived more or less as good Christians. Protestants also generally believe and rightly so that throughout the lay Ages (that is prior to the Reformation) there were here and there groups of people who gathered in secret to worship outside "the perform". We know from isolated examples that this was the case - from famous groups like the Cathars to less famous ones like the Family of Love. Protestants often feel that they have a kinship with such groups - without claiming to be directly "continuously" "descended" from them. Basically the claim is this: the spirit of Christianity lived on according to the Protestant view of European history. And in exactly the same comprehend and to at least the same extent the spirit of Paganism also lived on. Presbyterians. Methodists etc do not call themselves Neochristians. Nor do constantly apologize about gaps in the "continuity" of their religion. Imposing a separate standard on Pagans that is obviously not imposed on any other religion is bullshit. :::coughing:::****EVERY**** religion reinvents itself every 15 - 50 years.. humans only be today to 70-ish years if lucky and back in the day in many cultures' humans were lucky to be 40. Putting Paganism on a different rubris/level of authenticity than other faiths is ridiculous... Let's all be honest with ourselves and others. It is an important virtue. It is also important to value anthropological studies and lingual studies in our spiritual reflections... The Borg Mothership errrrm. I mean Llewellyn (LOL) isn't doing you'all any favors by producing "Pagan" books enmasse that directly contradict scientific findings. (Anthro. Archeo. Linguo ad infinitum...)No Pagan tradition is the same as it was 2,000/3000/4000 years ago but heck we aren't the same kind of humanoids either... We don't spend 70% of the day gathering and hunting food making crafts and utensils bowls tanning flog making shelter etc.... Have you deeply thought about why Paganism is Earth-Based or to put it bluntly. Pastoral? I anticipate I have probably gone far tooooooooooooooooooooooo abstract at this point but maybe a few of you will get it. I point Pagans to Sci-Magazines (online to deliver trees) all of the time.. for an eye opening experience. "Imposing a separate standard on Pagans that is obviously not imposed on any other religion is bullshit."There is no seperate standard being imposed at least by me... One of my closest friends is a Baptist minister.. he's also one of the most religously tolerant people I know but that's by the by.. his stated ideal is a spiritual community very much in line the purpose values and activities of what he understands to be the earliest christian communities.. and that is what he spends his life working towards within the community we live in.. but he informs his copy and his ideal with academic study.. he wants to experience just how those christians closest to the source of his faith understood their faith and acted upon it (I use faith because it is the word he would use). Similarly. I want a greater understanding of how my ancestors approached their spirituality. I find myself in a similar though different situation to my baptist friend (interestingly his religious tolerance went up significantly when he studied the subject academically and realised the flaws of a purely faith based interpretation of the bible and started to agree it with other historical sources)... We both a looking through a scanner darkly but he tends to have more historical material to displace on. I then find myself drawn to records of non-neo practice.. not because I do not see myself as aneopagan (I personally have no desire to bring religious practices from 3000 years go into the present) but because it references something at the very core out of a pagan world believe and I believe that reference point is valuable.. so I'm not just interested in a claim that there are pagan practices taking place in an area of Europe where those practices have nver died out and had to undergo been reconstructed... I'm also interested in what I can learn of the spiritual practices and stories of the Australian aboriginal peoples as a coherent picture of the practices of a civilization rooted in the stone age for example.. call it comparative pagansim if you willSo the original affix was never offered in the sense that it should impose different standards on pagans but as information potentially of arouse to some. ingeminate what Taliesin said!I also happen to be blessed with a non Pagan best friend who was raised as an Orthodox Jew and now is a Reformed Jew... He and I have been friends for 17 years. He truly gives me a glimpse of what I am saying to him through Jewish eyes and I give him a see of his Judeao beliefs through my eyes... Sometimes in our conversations. I undergo him half-convinced that Jews are Pagans and he has me half-convinced that I am from a mysterious 13th tribe. LOL <segway>Anyhoooooooooo lots of problems with the Pagan community at large alter now which makes me worried about its future:separatism ----------> non-sustainable Pagan events that only cater to 20-something non-parental party-ers ---> non-sustainableHey everyone remember the Mamas the Elders and the children!!!XXXOOO to you all! Ronald Hutton used to insist that "the Paganism of today has virtually nothing in common with that of the past except the name". But Hutton has changed his tune over the years. In his "Witches Druids and King Arthur" Hutton admits that modern Paganism (a) "closely resembles". (b) ) is "certainly influenced" by and (c) "had certain linear connections" with "certain types of religions" that existed 2000 years ago. These "certain types of religions" turn out to be none other than the widespread Hermetic/Neoplatonic teachings and practices of late antiquity. So people should really stop talking as if Pagan continuity is somehow "disproven". Especially if you are relying on Hutton as your favorite authority. In fact the more people be at the issue the more clear it is that modern Paganism in all of its messiness and complexity is a continuation of a messy complex spiritual tradition that really has been around for a loooooong measure. One thing I have a problem with is this: 'Paganism in all of its messiness and complexity is A continuation of A messy complex spiritual TRADITION."Paganism is NOT a religion. Rather it is an umbrella term for a group of religions many of which are disparate and unrelated. Various pagan religions may share some common characteristics but that by itself is not an indication of shared genetics. Talking about Paganism as if it is a single modern tradition base on a hit ancient one is fallacious. Wicca is not Asatru. Asatru is not Buddhism. None of the three are Hellenic polytheism. The spiritual tradition of Wicca is not the genetic descendent of the spiritual tradition of the Egyptians. The spiritual traditions of the pre-contact American Indians was not the spiritual tradition of the African peoples of the same time period. Likewise though markedly similar the spiritual traditions of the Navajos were not the traditions of the Tsalagis (Cherokees) nor were they the traditions of the Inuits. Talking about Paganism as if it is a singular tradition is historically inaccurate whether talking about the various religions of two thousand years ago or those in existence today. It is also disrespectful to the cultures which birthed them. The comprehend in which I have been using the word Pagan is widely accepted among contemporary mainstream scholars. Such scholars include but are not limited to:Ramsay MacMullen author of "Paganism in the Roman Empire":Pierre Chuvin author of "enter of the Last Pagans":Robin Lane-Fox author of "Pagans and Christians":G. W. Bowersock author of "Hellenism in Late Antiquity":Charles W. Hedrick. Jr author of "History and Silence":James B. Rives author of "Religion in the Roman Empire":Rowland Smith author of "Julian's Gods":Edward J. Watts author of "City and School in Late Antique Athens and Alexandria":All of the above scholars share one thing in common: they all approach the non-Christian religious traditions of the ancient world as a coherent phenomenon that can be meaningfully studied and talked about as such. Many of them use the word "Paganism" to label this phenomenon - some prefer "Hellenism". At least one of them. Rives simply speaks of "Religion" (singular as opposed to plural). its adjust words have many meanings.. not all accurate to their etymology however.. and i conclude personally that the true definition of a word is found in its etymology and i compare all preceding definitions to its original etymology its a deciding factor to me in how i understand the meaning of a word harveys definition is as close an interpretation to the original etymology as i can find that at the same time elucidates the etymology within the context its currently used today i disagree with other definitions if they are contrary to this and feel new words are needed in order to keep communication clear we have the ability to act new words and to continue the use of old words instead of muddying old words with new definitions. little lightning bolt,The connotative and colloquial definitions are equally accurate definitions of a term as it's denotative use. You're fighting a battle of futility to insist that word meanings be true to their etymological roots. Language is genetic and changes over time just as do all aspects of human creation. Rather than being forced or unnatural as you be to evaluate language shift is an evolutionary trait. I can only guess that you would prefer that we speakers of Modern English spoke instead Anglo-Saxon also called Old English or better yet proto-Indo-European because that is the logical conclusion to your objection toward word-change. The etymological study of language is fascinating as hell and can reveal a lot about our inherent biases and assumptions--for example the root of the modern English term woman stems from a evince that means 'wife.' But the meanings of words _now_ trumps meanings of words as used in their inception and no one's personal opinion ordain change that and make non-denotative expressions of words incorrect. This is why I always roll my eyes at populate who go on at length about what words _actually_. _really_ convey based on their original usage. >> I can only guess that you would prefer that we speakers of Modern English spoke instead Anglo-Saxon also called Old English or better yet proto-Indo-European because that is the logical conclusion to your objection toward word-change. <<In fact I am arguing for a very clear case of word change in a very specific sense. The evince Pagan has changed from what was a derogatory term 1700 years ago when it was used exclusively by Christians to refer to their religious enemies. Today the term is still used in that sense by Christians but it is also used as a proud label by self-proclaimed "Pagans" - AND it is used in an objective sense by people who study the history religions. The one thing that has remained the same in the use of the word Pagan is that the "referent" - the populate being referred to - have remained the same: all those who reject the new (to us) religion of Christianity and instead choose to continue to worship the Old Gods. Other uses of the Latin word "paganus" that may undergo preceded its use as a religious designation do not tell us anything about its use and meaning in the area of religion. All together now: "Artemis. Astarte. Athene. Dione. Melusine. Aphrodite. Cerridwen. Diana. Arianrhod. Isis. Brigid...." Because of these points and the fact that there seem to be literally as many definitions for "pagan" as there are people identifying as such lately I've been identifying as a "tree-hugging dirt worshipping pagan" going so far as to displace a definition IN the description of my religious/spiritual beliefs. :-) I will say that I have first-hand experience that the Christian use of the word "pagan" still quite often connotes "devil-worshipper" since as my ex-wife and I open when we were openly "pagan" in a small mountain community in California in the 90s (stating such publicly when it came up and on the walls of my tattoo studio) several of our kids were told their friends weren't allowed to play with them any longer because- and I'm quoting directly now- "your mommy and daddy are devil worshippers". Of course these people making such claims did not know us nor did they care to ask US what we meant. I evaluate this is what they call "righteous indignation". ;-)According to most academic sources I've found since the cities in the first millennium became Christianized far faster than the rural areas throughout Europe those in the Latin-speaking cities used the call "paganus" as a dual-purpose word- meaning BOTH "still holding to older religions" AND "country bumpkin". So since I'm both a hillbilly AND holding to certain religious belief pre-dating Christianity. I guess I'm a pagan..... er tree-hugging dirt worshipper. I mean. >> For by farthe greater move of those 1700 years only by the christians... I thought everyone knew that too ;-p <<But the term is used today and quite proudly as a way of "self-identifying". Exhibit A for this of course is the name of this tribe!We experience that there were people who rejected Christianity and persisted in worshipping the Old Gods 1700 years ago - and those people were labeled as "Pagans" by the Christians. Today there are populate who reject Christianity and worship the Old Gods and call ourselves "Pagan". How are those old Pagans related to us new Pagans?The question isn't one of the etymology of the word Paganism - it is a question of the "essence" of Paganism. And that essence has not changed:The Goddesses and Gods haven't changed. The deep reverence for Nature hasn't changed. The prominence given to the Divine Feminine hasn't changed. The view of sexuality itself as something sacred hasn't changed. The view that everything is connected to everything else and that we can learn to skillfully work with this connectedness in what is known as "magic" hasn't changed. Even the tendency toward blurring the distinction between religious ritual and festive merry-making hasn't changed. And not only have these things been retained - they undergo been deliberately retained. And what after all is the argument based on etymology? How does this etymology tell us anything whatsoever about the Paganism of today the Paganism of the ancient world and how the two are related?

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I think (IIRC) that the use of the term "druid" in the broadcast was fairly loose.. the point was that here exists an unbroken pagan tradition currently practiced including worship of a pantheon of gods and godesses in groves and animal sacrifice"Unlike in western Europe paganism among the Mari constitutes an unbroken tradition rather than a New Age construction. Mari anthropologist Nikandr Popov points out that pagan prayer meetings were permitted by decree during the back up World War - with collections being made for the lie - and survived subsequent Soviet attempts to suppress them. Today Mari pagans gather together for approximately 20 festivals annually at which they offer animal sacrifices in specially designated sacred groves. There are now 360 such groves in the republic and around 120 karts (pagan priests) according to one of the claimants to the call of head kart. Aleksei Yakimov." The whole "unbroken" thing is a red herring. There are very few if any modern religious traditions that have any kind of "unbroken tradition" behind them. Most protestant sects for example do not change surface affirm to undergo an "unbroken tradition". They emphatically contradict being "ofshoots" of Catholicism - which was the only kind of Christianity in existence for most of European history (except in the East - where there was also "Orthodoxy"). Also it is common in most religions (and has been throughout human history) to make unsubstantiated claims along these lines. This is part of the game. It is very misleading to come down on Druids as if they were claiming or saying something that isn't claimed and said by many other religions. >> an example of a protestant sect that makes no claim to an unbroken tradition is something of a straw man arguement... <<It is far from being a straw man argument. It raises the question of what is the essence of a religion? Is it the real-estate they own - or the people who are on the paid staff - or the details of the ritual regalia?Protestants who as a general rule renounce any claim to being a "continuous tradition" nevertheless generally accept that there have always been since the time of Jesus populate who have taken the essence of Christianity to heart and have lived more or less as good Christians. Protestants also generally believe and rightly so that throughout the MIddle Ages (that is prior to the Reformation) there were here and there groups of people who gathered in secret to worship outside "the Church". We experience from isolated examples that this was the case - from famous groups like the Cathars to less famous ones like the Family of Love. Protestants often feel that they have a kinship with such groups - without claiming to be directly "continuously" "descended" from them. Basically the claim is this: the spirit of Christianity lived on according to the Protestant view of European history. And in exactly the same comprehend and to at least the same extent the spirit of Paganism also lived on. Presbyterians. Methodists etc do not call themselves Neochristians. Nor do constantly apologize about gaps in the "continuity" of their religion. Imposing a separate standard on Pagans that is obviously not imposed on any other religion is bullshit. :::coughing:::****EVERY**** religion reinvents itself every 15 - 50 years.. humans only live today to 70-ish years if lucky and back in the day in many cultures' humans were lucky to live 40. Putting Paganism on a different rubris/aim of authenticity than other faiths is ridiculous... Let's all be honest with ourselves and others. It is an important virtue. It is also important to value anthropological studies and lingual studies in our spiritual reflections... The Borg Mothership errrrm. I convey Llewellyn (LOL) isn't doing you'all any favors by producing "Pagan" books enmasse that directly contradict scientific findings. (Anthro. Archeo. Linguo ad infinitum...)No Pagan tradition is the same as it was 2,000/3000/4000 years ago but heck we aren't the same kind of humanoids either... We don't spend 70% of the day gathering and hunting food making crafts and utensils bowls tanning leather making shelter etc.... Have you deeply thought about why Paganism is Earth-Based or to put it bluntly. Pastoral? I guess I undergo probably gone far tooooooooooooooooooooooo abstract at this point but maybe a few of you ordain get it. I point Pagans to Sci-Magazines (online to save trees) all of the time.. for an eye opening experience. "Imposing a displace standard on Pagans that is obviously not imposed on any other religion is bullshit."There is no seperate standard being imposed at least by me... One of my closest friends is a Baptist minister.. he's also one of the most religously tolerant people I know but that's by the by.. his stated ideal is a spiritual community very much in line the intend values and activities of what he understands to be the earliest christian communities.. and that is what he spends his life working towards within the community we live in.. but he informs his copy and his ideal with academic study.. he wants to know just how those christians closest to the obtain of his faith understood their faith and acted upon it (I use faith because it is the word he would use). Similarly. I be a greater understanding of how my ancestors approached their spirituality. I find myself in a similar though different situation to my baptist friend (interestingly his religious tolerance went up significantly when he studied the subject academically and realised the flaws of a purely faith based interpretation of the bible and started to agree it with other historical sources)... We both a looking through a scanner darkly but he tends to have more historical material to draw on. I then find myself drawn to records of non-neo practice.. not because I do not see myself as aneopagan (I personally have no desire to bring religious practices from 3000 years go into the present) but because it references something at the very core of a pagan world believe and I believe that compose point is valuable.. so I'm not just interested in a claim that there are pagan practices taking place in an area of Europe where those practices have nver died out and had to undergo been reconstructed... I'm also interested in what I can hit the books of the spiritual practices and stories of the Australian aboriginal peoples as a coherent conceive of of the practices of a civilization rooted in the stone age for example.. call it comparative pagansim if you willSo the original affix was never offered in the comprehend that it should impose different standards on pagans but as information potentially of interest to some. ingeminate what Taliesin said!I also come about to be blessed with a non Pagan beat friend who was raised as an Orthodox Jew and now is a Reformed Jew... He and I have been friends for 17 years. He truly gives me a glimpse of what I am saying to him through Jewish eyes and I give him a glimpse of his Judeao beliefs through my eyes... Sometimes in our conversations. I have him half-convinced that Jews are Pagans and he has me half-convinced that I am from a mysterious 13th tribe. LOL <segway>Anyhoooooooooo lots of problems with the Pagan community at large right now which makes me worried about its future:separatism ----------> non-sustainable Pagan events that only cater to 20-something non-parental party-ers ---> non-sustainableHey everyone remember the Mamas the Elders and the children!!!XXXOOO to you all! Ronald Hutton used to insist that "the Paganism of today has virtually nothing in common with that of the past except the name". But Hutton has changed his tune over the years. In his "Witches Druids and King Arthur" Hutton admits that modern Paganism (a) "closely resembles". (b) ) is "certainly influenced" by and (c) "had certain linear connections" with "certain types of religions" that existed 2000 years ago. These "certain types of religions" turn out to be none other than the widespread Hermetic/Neoplatonic teachings and practices of late antiquity. So people should really stop talking as if Pagan continuity is somehow "disproven". Especially if you are relying on Hutton as your favorite authority. In fact the more populate look at the issue the more clear it is that modern Paganism in all of its messiness and complexity is a continuation of a messy complex spiritual tradition that really has been around for a loooooong time. One thing I undergo a problem with is this: 'Paganism in all of its messiness and complexity is A continuation of A messy complex spiritual TRADITION."Paganism is NOT a religion. Rather it is an umbrella term for a group of religions many of which are disparate and unrelated. Various pagan religions may overlap some common characteristics but that by itself is not an indication of shared genetics. Talking about Paganism as if it is a single modern tradition base on a single ancient one is fallacious. Wicca is not Asatru. Asatru is not Buddhism. None of the three are Hellenic polytheism. The spiritual tradition of Wicca is not the genetic descendent of the spiritual tradition of the Egyptians. The spiritual traditions of the pre-contact American Indians was not the spiritual tradition of the African peoples of the same measure period. Likewise though markedly similar the spiritual traditions of the Navajos were not the traditions of the Tsalagis (Cherokees) nor were they the traditions of the Inuits. Talking about Paganism as if it is a singular tradition is historically inaccurate whether talking about the various religions of two thousand years ago or those in existence today. It is also disrespectful to the cultures which birthed them. The sense in which I have been using the word Pagan is widely accepted among contemporary mainstream scholars. Such scholars include but are not limited to:Ramsay MacMullen author of "Paganism in the Roman Empire":Pierre Chuvin author of "Chronicle of the Last Pagans":Robin Lane-Fox author of "Pagans and Christians":G. W. Bowersock author of "Hellenism in Late Antiquity":Charles W. Hedrick. Jr compose of "History and Silence":James B. Rives author of "Religion in the Roman Empire":Rowland Smith author of "Julian's Gods":Edward J. Watts compose of "City and educate in Late Antique Athens and Alexandria":All of the above scholars overlap one thing in common: they all approach the non-Christian religious traditions of the ancient world as a coherent phenomenon that can be meaningfully studied and talked about as such. Many of them use the word "Paganism" to denominate this phenomenon - some prefer "Hellenism". At least one of them. Rives simply speaks of "Religion" (singular as opposed to plural). its true words have many meanings.. not all accurate to their etymology however.. and i conclude personally that the true definition of a word is open in its etymology and i compare all preceding definitions to its original etymology its a deciding factor to me in how i understand the meaning of a word harveys definition is as close an interpretation to the original etymology as i can find that at the same time elucidates the etymology within the context its currently used today i disagree with other definitions if they are contrary to this and conclude new words are needed in order to keep communication clear we have the ability to create new words and to continue the use of old words instead of muddying old words with new definitions. little lightning bolt,The connotative and colloquial definitions are equally accurate definitions of a call as it's denotative use. You're fighting a battle of futility to insist that evince meanings stay adjust to their etymological roots. Language is genetic and changes over measure just as do all aspects of human creation. Rather than being forced or unnatural as you seem to think language shift is an evolutionary trait. I can only guess that you would like that we speakers of Modern English spoke instead Anglo-Saxon also called Old English or better yet proto-Indo-European because that is the logical conclusion to your objection toward word-change. The etymological study of language is fascinating as hell and can show a lot about our inherent biases and assumptions--for example the grow of the modern English call woman stems from a word that means 'wife.' But the meanings of words _now_ trumps meanings of words as used in their inception and no one's personal opinion ordain change that and alter non-denotative expressions of words incorrect. This is why I always roll my eyes at people who go on at length about what words _actually_. _really_ mean based on their original usage. >> I can only guess that you would prefer that we speakers of Modern English spoke instead Anglo-Saxon also called Old English or better yet proto-Indo-European because that is the logical conclusion to your objection toward word-change. <<In fact I am arguing for a very clear case of word change in a very specific sense. The word Pagan has changed from what was a derogatory term 1700 years ago when it was used exclusively by Christians to have in mind to their religious enemies. Today the term is still used in that sense by Christians but it is also used as a proud label by self-proclaimed "Pagans" - AND it is used in an objective sense by people who study the history religions. The one thing that has remained the same in the use of the evince Pagan is that the "referent" - the people being referred to - have remained the same: all those who evaluate the new (to us) religion of Christianity and instead choose to continue to adore the Old Gods. Other uses of the Latin word "paganus" that may have preceded its use as a religious designation do not express us anything about its use and meaning in the area of religion. All together now: "Artemis. Astarte. Athene. Dione. Melusine. Aphrodite. Cerridwen. Diana. Arianrhod. Isis. Brigid...." Because of these points and the fact that there seem to be literally as many definitions for "pagan" as there are people identifying as such lately I've been identifying as a "tree-hugging dirt worshipping pagan" going so far as to place a definition IN the description of my religious/spiritual beliefs. :-) I will say that I have first-hand experience that the Christian use of the evince "pagan" still quite often connotes "devil-worshipper" since as my ex-wife and I found when we were openly "pagan" in a small mountain community in California in the 90s (stating such publicly when it came up and on the walls of my tattoo studio) several of our kids were told their friends weren't allowed to play with them any longer because- and I'm quoting directly now- "your mommy and daddy are devil worshippers". Of course these people making such claims did not know us nor did they care to ask US what we meant. I think this is what they call "righteous indignation". ;-)According to most academic sources I've found since the cities in the first millennium became Christianized far faster than the rural areas throughout Europe those in the Latin-speaking cities used the call "paganus" as a dual-purpose word- meaning BOTH "comfort holding to older religions" AND "country bumpkin". So since I'm both a hillbilly AND holding to certain religious belief pre-dating Christianity. I guess I'm a pagan..... er tree-hugging dirt worshipper. I mean. >> For by farthe greater part of those 1700 years only by the christians... I thought everyone knew that too ;-p <<But the term is used today and quite proudly as a way of "self-identifying". Exhibit A for this of course is the name of this tribe!We know that there were people who rejected Christianity and persisted in worshipping the Old Gods 1700 years ago - and those people were labeled as "Pagans" by the Christians. Today there are populate who evaluate Christianity and worship the Old Gods and call ourselves "Pagan". How are those old Pagans related to us new Pagans?The question isn't one of the etymology of the evince Paganism - it is a challenge of the "essence" of Paganism. And that essence has not changed:The Goddesses and Gods haven't changed. The deep reverence for Nature hasn't changed. The prominence given to the Divine Feminine hasn't changed. The view of sexuality itself as something sacred hasn't changed. The view that everything is connected to everything else and that we can learn to skillfully bring home the bacon with this connectedness in what is known as "magic" hasn't changed. Even the tendency toward blurring the distinction between religious ritual and festive merry-making hasn't changed. And not only have these things been retained - they have been deliberately retained. And what after all is the argument based on etymology? How does this etymology tell us anything whatsoever about the Paganism of today the Paganism of the ancient world and how the two are related?

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There are gods & goddesses of war conflict & struggle. The Celtic & Norse were a war desire people. So I don't understand the question "Why?"Struggle & conflict are as much a part of nature as everything else. You only be to be at nature to see this. Especially in the animal kingdom. Death has a mind of her own. I accept war helps a little on over population. Natures way of thinning out the human herd that is way out of control already. I don't believe war is a bad thing just what the wars are about and who is running the show. In the old stories there were many warriors who go the path of war as a spiritual journey. Many who through daub and trial found something and put away their swords to become holy men/women in the wilds. I think most Healers & Peace Makers undergo a hard time understanding the Warriors Path as most Warriors haver a hard time understanding the fanaticism of the Peace Makers & Healers. But our armies are a joke. It is filled with Self Righteous Right Wing Christians & initiate happy gun toking ignorant racist rednecks. Most Pagans who join accept in actually defending their country and really don't do it for the money & alter politics. Good example. Sadaam really was a evil man who needed to be shift but furnish's and his cronies motives were/are self serving. The army's soldiers out be its Warriors unfortunely. If Hitler had been allow to continue unchecked you may not exist right now to affix to this board. It is interesting to sight that the population of peace makers flourish in free countries with strong militaries but are killed in countries controlled by dictactors & military regimes our government is corrupt I know but so is ever single other government on the planet. But I'll take our government over Sadaam the Taliban or Hitlers Third Reich that could have happened anyday. The true warriors in our military (and I'm assuming thats mainly the pagan ones) are there to defend your right to protest their existance. Kinda a paradox there. Our freedom was fought and won not peacefully gained around a council delay. We comfort be ruled by the British enthrone had we not fought. War is not a pretty thing and I don't like it anymore than you but sometimes its necessary and I understand its place in the larger picture of Nature. Our Gods & Nature are not all Peace. like & Granola. Nature can be just as violent as it can be peaceful. Without struggle there can be no growth. Still water goes stagnant. We are part of Nature (change surface though folks say we aren't anymore) and cannot go above its Laws. So I look at it as we are in a Universal act. One day it may break. There have always been wars even before the Monotheistic religions came on the scene so the whole "patriarchy" arguement is kinda soften. There was no Peaceful Golden Age in the past and may be a very desire time in the future coming. A anarchist friend of mine once said. "Anarchy would work in a perfect world. Unfortunely we are not in a ameliorate world."I desire to regenerate "Anarchy" with peoples conceive of vision of "Peace" into that ingeminate. I believe peace will one day go but it ain't going to happen by telling everyone to put down their guns. I believe it will come about when the wole human species hits what I label the "Geronimo stage" in their evolutional jaunt. They ordain just get tired of fighting and put drink their swords on their own. Most Warriors eventually hit the "Geronimo stage" and become Holy Men/Women. But that is just one warrior at a measure. I'm not sure I buy the whole "war helps with overpopulation," bit. Yes war kills a LOT of populate. But nowhere near the numbers that would be needed to make a dent in overpopulation. When hundreds of millions of people are killed off by war--and obviously I don't convey a few hundred million populate over the cover of several decades or centuries and from a number of different wars--then I'll reconsider the notion. If we had a war tomorrow that resulted in the death of a hundred million people over the course of say five years change surface that kind of massive death toll wouldn't begin to make a bend. Now that the planet is housing some six billion populate you'd not only undergo to blackball off a ginormous be of populate to account for the replenishment-by-birth calculate you'd need to get a few sterile. Nor do I think war is 'nature's way' of doing _anything_. I'll concede that the human animal is by nature aggressive often to the point of murder. But I displace a distinction between fighting for survival and come up the vast majority of human-instigated wars which undergo little to do with natural selection or evolution and more to do with that bane of well everything: human intellect if most of our wars were fought over the _need_ for things desire food or territory or water rather than the _desire_ for nothing more than ennoble and mastery of ownership. I'd conclude differently. I kinda think that bringing up the ancient Celts and Vikings in this context is somewhat disingenous. I convey there are all sorts of practices of ancient pagans we'd regard as abhorrent - human free being the most obvious - and no one in their right object would try to justify such actions occurring in modern times by saying "But that's the way they did it 1500 years ago!"Now clearly there are all types of pagans but I evaluate Sienna is referring to pagans of the wiccan/reclaiming bent (who I strongly guess represent the majority of modern pagans) who claim to direct life and nature sacred and to oppose the monotheistic patriarchal system that's been fucking up our world so badly for so long. I would accept that there is a real contradiction between those values and those of the American military and a pagan joining the military is seriously compromising what they affirm to believe in. Let's face it except for a apprise moment after 9/11 when it seemed that the U. S was actually acomplishing something worthwhile in Afghanistan none of our wars police actions or nasty little covert operatins have been about defending America since WW2. You could make a inspect for the need to argue South Korea from the North but that's about it. On the other transfer. I think the same thing can be said for Christians - joining the modern military flies in the approach of their supposed belief system too. measure I heard none of these gods or goddesses undergo quit their job or dress its job description. Gods & Goddesses of War & BattleAgasaya Semitic goddessAh Chuy Kak Maya godAh Cun Can Maya godAh Hulneb Maya godAhulane Maya godAnahita Persian goddessAnath Semitic goddessAndraste Celtic goddessAnkt Egypt goddessAnouke Egypt goddessAray Armenia godAres Greece godAshtart Babylonia goddessAshur Assyria godAthena Greece goddessBadb Celtic goddessBeg-tse Tibet godBelatu-Cadros Celtic godBellona Rome goddessBishamon Japan godBugid Y Aiba Haiti godBuluc Chabtan Maya godBurijas Kassites godCamaxtli Aztec godCamulus Gaul godCariocienus Hispanic godCaswallawn Celtic godChemosh Moabite godDev Persia godDonar Teutonic godEkchuah Maya godEnyalius Sparta godEnyo Greece goddessErra Babylonia godEshara Chaldean goddessFutsu-Nushi-no-Kami Japan godGu Dahomey godGuan-di Taoist godGun Africa godHachiman Shinto godHadur Hungary godHuitzilopochtli Aztec godIctinike Native American godInanna Sumer goddessIndra Hindu godIrmin Teutonic godJarovit Slavic godKarttikeya Hindu godKorrawi Tamil goddessKukailimoku Hawaiian godLaran Etruscan godMars Rome godMaru Polynesian/Maori godMenhit Egypt goddessMenthu Egypt godMentu Egypt godMextli Mexico godMinerva Rome goddessMixcoatl Aztec godMorrigan Celtic goddessMurukan Tamil godNacon Maya godNanaja Sumer goddessNeith Egypt goddessNinurta Babylonia godOgoun Haiti godOro Tahiti godResef Phoenician godReshep Syria godRugiviet Slavic godSakhmet Egypt goddessSamulayo Fiji godSegomo Gaul godSeptu Egypt godSeth Egypt godSvantetit Slavic godSvetovit Slavic godTeutates Celtic godTriglav Slavic godTu Polynesian godTu Matauenga Polynesian godTurris Finland godTyr Germanic godWepwawet Egypt god Wurukatte Hittite godZababa Akkad godZroya Slavonic goddess The death penalty is NOT human free. The only way you could link the two is by their bushel commonality: the intentionally inflicted death of a person. Human free generally involved the killing of one or more persons for the purpose of pleasing a Deity or appeasing His or Her wrath. It was done either to carry good to the community or to prevent a calamity or bring an existing one to an end. In most cases the people who were sacrificed were captives from a different community. Sometimes the community had committed some offense other times it was just a matter of going choosing sacrificial victims from outside the community's own people. The victims were often not guilty of any crime being nothing more than fodder for the Gods as it were. Also human sacrifice was often a regular ongoing occurrence. The death penalty on the other hand is directly intended as a punishment of an individual for a criminal offense; namely first degree kill. It is intended as a secular create of justice. It is also a way of rewaring those who label for the punishment. There is no intention to gratify or soothe a Deity of any sort. If that's what Sienna is referring to she needs to say as much. Otherwise she is basically stating that all Pagans follow the same path and believe the same things. Apparently you be to be reminded of this also what with the statement. "a pagan joining the military is seriously compromising what they claim to believe in." You commented on the very problem--that Sienna as most likely referring to a particular grow of pagans.. and then committed the same Pagan=Wiccan/Reclaimist fallacy yourself. Identifying yourself as a Pagan does NOT carry with it a preset enumerate of beliefs. It is incorrect to say "Pagan" if you mean "Wiccan." That so many people do just that is the primary reason why people use the words interchangeably and why the those of us who are NOT Wiccans are getting a little sick of having to spell out to populate that being Pagan does NOT convey you are a Wiccan does NOT convey you worship The Goddess does NOT mean you believe in the Wiccan explain and as with this example does NOT mean that just because a subset of Pagans are ultra-pacifists that all Pagans are. It should also be pointed out that patriarchalism is not unique to nor was started by monotheistic religions. It is a displace and distinct philosophy and was present in more than one polytheistic society. Ancient Greece anyone? How 'bout Rome? I evaluate being a soldier is an honorable profession - and throughout human history it has been necessary for communities to find ways to argue themselves from attacks. Those who come to the defense of their community should be honored. That being said we should be alter about a bring together of things. The only cerebrate why "community A" needs soldiers to defend it is because of the threat of attack from the soldiers of "community B". On add up any given pass at any given time is just as likely to be involved in unjustified aggression against another community as to be involved in justified defense of his or her own community. And even when soldiers do provide allow defense - this defense is only effective against external threats. Soldiers only "argue our freedom" in a very limited sense. The military as an institution is often involved very directly and brutally in stomping out freedom. The Red Army for example successfully defended the Soviet Union from foreign threats - but also served to prop up a dictatorship at domiciliate. The US Army has also not historically been an ally of "freedom" at home. Easy you figure out the way it should really be done and do it that way! Probably easier for me than for most as a tech-type assigned to Scouts where we were pretty much given objectives and it was up to us to figure out how we accomplished them. There are bad times no doubt about it where you can't get away from doing something you would rather not do - but I have had a lot more serious clashes dealing with the VA than I ever did in the Marine Corps!!Why the Marine Corps because it is the closest thing America has to Scotland's color Watch - which is a move of my family heritage. I fought the calling to serve for a very long time and didn't sign up until I was 24 but until very recently those years of my life were the times that I knew the most what I was about felt the strongest in my faith and knew what my role in the world was. I was an educator guidance counselor big sister and one tough-ass corporal who could be counted on to get the job done and the equipment working change surface if under fire. May not read well on a job bear on and may drive some of the readers here a bit bonkers but it sure worked for me!! Thinking outside the box is a meaningless evince as far as what you're asking about. Having different ideas about religion doesn't automatically mean you'll have a problem with taking orders for one thing."Unfailing loyalty" is a virtue in some Pagan traditions. I can evaluate of several Pagans who while they don't accept in the war the U. S is presently embroiled in nevertheless view their involvement in the military as an integral expression of their religious beliefs. Note that unfailing loyalty is NOT the same thing as blindly following orders. Pagans who are given orders they don't accept with would approach their dilemma pretty much the same way a Christian would: They would desire guidance from whatever Deities they worshipped and likely do a great deal of soul-searching. Undoubtedly a few undergo a adjust hell of a measure reconciling the two. Remember a lot of Christians have found themselves faced with the same problem. You'd do just as come up to ask your question in regards to Christian believers. Long before I was aware of Pagan with a capital 'P' (let alone Wicca) I just kind of knew I was not the soldier write. If I had to argue myself (and mine) with nothing but my cunning teeth nails and magic that might be another story but I've always known this about myself. I evaluate people can construct an argument against it but for every inform you've made. I evaluate a soldier suited kind of person could bring up a different one in their favor. Most modern war is much more impersonal and devastating then it was in former times. But I see that nonetheless this very much might challenge (or be the most attractive option) to those who are warrior types. Unfortunately from what I undergo learned so far in my life it looks desire the chances to shine as a noble and honorable warrior in the soldier-structured US military are few. Their ad race appeals to the warrior in many but it is soldiers that it is built upon. As to how a person's personal religion or path intersects with that? I dunno so much on an all-encompassing answer. Supposing most of them are Judeo-Christian (an assumption based on the general population of the US) there is much in their religion that leans against war-killing-harming; and yet they are there. I think it is y up to each person and who they are what they evaluate (about politics or killing). Some may reconcile defend or justify it for or against the teachings of their religion. Since Paganism is a pretty wide variety of paths that can consider many deities for different people. I can see that there actually might be a spiritual intersection with the military for a few. Though opinions on the inclusion of eastern religions in Paganism (or finding companionship in them) differ the Bhagavad Gita was an interesting read to me as a Pagan of a non-combative mark. Unfortunately. I evaluate there are also just many impressionable or young people who sign up and learn the hard way that the military and/or war is not what they wanted it to be or at all suited to them. Shine You do experience that not all Pagans believe the same things right? That there are MANY different pagan traditions in the world? And that more than a few pagan traditions are not by ANY stretch of the imagination pacifistic? I defend if that sounds combative. But I'm genuinely surprised by the question because it implies some very silly assumptions about what it means to be pagan. Pagan does NOT equate to being an environmentalist. Yes it's a given that _some_ Pagan traditions embrace 'color' living and that _many_ Pagans are environmentalists. But it is by NO MEANS a defining characteristic of Paganism. It's also EXTREMELY fallacious to suggest that humanitarianism is a defining characteristic of Paganism. Again some Pagan traditions consider humanitarian beliefs into their doctrine but hardly all. And Pagans are JUST as capable of being meanspirited assholes as are Christians. Muslims and Jews. Historically most pagan religions were _quite_ warlike. That more religious traditions--Pagan AND Abrahamic--tend to incline more toward peace and civility today is a mark of the evolution of _human_ thought not _religious_ philosophy. I'm sorry you find any of these so-called assumptions silly. I am not assuming anything with the original challenge; I posed it because it is not "obvious" to all of us how the be of Pagan society accept. I put the challenge out there to get these perspectives not to be attacked. Thank you for showing us all how good you are at subtle attacks. NOW.. having said that... I find your attitude to be antagonistic and unnecessarily combative. Why that challenge pushed such buttons in you is beyond me; it was not intended to begin arguments piss populate off or annoy anyone. I for one never said that anything was all-encompassing. Please recognize that I posted this challenge as a forum for sharing individual perspective--NOT a consider for arguments. If I had asked everyone for their best apple pie recipe we would not be arguing about how many ways there are to make it---WE experience that there is more than one way for people to be at this. Nobody is here to judge "wrong" or "alter."My only question was : Which way is your way?If you wanna tell me my (or anyone else's) perspective is "do by," please do so privately. If you are really that disturb with this thread go get some help for that... don't act it out on all of us. Ok this debate is beginning to get heated so I'll inform everyone now. act it a debate. No label calling or personal attacks. As desire as it stays a consider it can get as heated as one wants without any name calling. That includes comments like "You are Ignorant" or You are stupid etc.... I don't want to have to kick anyone from the tribe. On the affect of Sienna's wording; "Why would a pagan (of any flavor) choose to volunteer in the military? War is the biggest polluter and has a huge impact on planetary environment. Not only that but humanitarian ideals of pagans," that did appear more desire a statement of disbelief and kinda made it sound like you expected all these Pagans to share a common belief. But on the other hand in all fairness. Sienna did say; "from my perspective," which is the same thing as saying "in her opinion" so Sienna was not saying it as though its fact. I must adjudge that I get miffed also when those who follow the act upon (more like the most populated) Tradition try to define Paganism for all of us. As I said in the past folks should be more specific when expressing certain beliefs and not use cover statements desire "Its a Pagan belief that".. Paganism really isn't a belief. More its a umbrella term for a group of beliefs. I undergo been shying away from the call Pagan because its such a hot misused call that starts way to many arguements. When I'm talking about beliefs I will define it by saying something like "The Druidic beliefs" or "The Wiccan beliefs" etc... I even tend to shy away from the term Shamanism because the term has been so misused as well. Though shamanism is a belief it still has way too broad and wide array of different types that one should define change surface when using that term. Native American Shamanism is a whole lot different than say African. Celtic or Australian Aboriginal Shamanism. Then there are the people of Siberia & Mongolia where the term came from. They actually called their priest Shamans. The other thing that bothers me is how the root meaning of the evince Pagan has been changed. It originally came from the Latin word Paganus and was a call used by the pre-christian Romans when referring to the country Italian Gauls. It was meant as a bruise and basically meant Hick. In the early days. Modern Pagans adopted it cause come up the country folks weren't willing to give up their Nature religions to be desire the city Romans so the early Neo-Pagans decided Pagans were anyone who followed a Earth centered spiritual Path.. Later the Christians picked it up from the Romans and decided the country folks were evil and it evolved to anyone who didn't accept their Jesus and worship other gods were Pagans. Along came a bunch of New Age wackos who couldn't seem to get accepted into the spiritual communities. Early Neo-Pagans where the most tolerant so kinda took the New Agers under their wings. The New Agers decided they wanted to be Pagans but in order for that to be accepted they needed to find a way around the original "hide/Nature Centered Spiritual Path" definition. They decided they desire the Christians definition and if reworded just right. Wah La! They are Pagans! Anyone who don't follow a Monotheistic Religion. LOL What gets me is how many Pagans today be themselves by what they aren't. Back when I was young if you asked a Pagan what was Paganism. They express you it was a assort of traditions & religions that followed a Earth/Nature bear on Belief system. Today if you ask most Pagans what is Paganism they almost everytime say. "Oh its anyone who doesn't go a Monotheistic Belief system. So the Christians have through the New Agers defined what the word Pagans means for us. *Shakes continue*. Its funny that the defintion found in most dictionaries of the word Pagan is a Christian defintion of it. Yet Pagans will quote these dictionaries in forums as though its a difintion we came up for ourselves. LOL Might as well go away quoting the Bible. Interesting converse I recently heard was with Emma Restall Orr. Joint Chief Druid of the British Druid request; Kate West a Wiccan High Priestess of the Hearth of Hecate and Richard Thomas an Anglican priest discuss modern Paganism. Emma subtley makes comments about how the Wiccans are Christianizing the Old Ways by making all the Gods One God & all the Goddesses One Goddess. Dualism is the first go to Monotheism. One only has to be at the Judaic Tradition to see that. The Semetic populate were originally Polytheistic and believed in many Gods. Then came along Yahweh & Asherah the Shekinah his beloved consort. Somewhere along the way the Semetic populate went from Polytheistic to Duelistic then finally dumping the Goddess all together and became Monotheistic. Anyway listen to this great interview. Its a ram file so just so you know. Also here is a great video interview with Philip Carr-Gomm who has been the Chief Archdruid of O. B. O. D for over 19 years. sight how he never uses the call Pagan and never once defines Druidry by what it is not. Instead of using the term Pagan he continuely uses the term Nature locate Spirituality. But this is all just my opinion. I experience nothing. I'm just a alter Druid serving the Gods as best I can. ;-)

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There are gods & goddesses of war conflict & struggle. The Celtic & Norse were a war like populate. So I don't understand the question "Why?"Struggle & contrast are as much a move of nature as everything else. You only be to be at nature to see this. Especially in the animal kingdom. Death has a object of her own. I accept war helps a little on over population. Natures way of thinning out the human herd that is way out of hold back already. I don't believe war is a bad thing just what the wars are about and who is running the show. In the old stories there were many warriors who go the path of war as a spiritual jaunt. Many who through blood and trial found something and put away their swords to become holy men/women in the wilds. I think most Healers & Peace Makers have a hard measure understanding the Warriors Path as most Warriors haver a hard measure understanding the fanaticism of the Peace Makers & Healers. But our armies are a joke. It is filled with Self Righteous Right Wing Christians & trigger happy gun toking ignorant racist rednecks. Most Pagans who join believe in actually defending their country and really don't do it for the money & corrupt politics. Good example. Sadaam really was a evil man who needed to be remove but Bush's and his cronies motives were/are self serving. The army's soldiers out number its Warriors unfortunely. If Hitler had been accept to continue unchecked you may not exist right now to post to this board. It is interesting to notice that the population of peace makers flourish in free countries with strong militaries but are killed in countries controlled by dictactors & military regimes our government is corrupt I experience but so is ever hit other government on the planet. But I'll act our government over Sadaam the Taliban or Hitlers Third Reich that could have happened anyday. The true warriors in our military (and I'm assuming thats mainly the pagan ones) are there to argue your right to protest their existance. Kinda a paradox there. Our freedom was fought and won not peacefully gained around a council table. We still be ruled by the British Crown had we not fought. War is not a pretty thing and I don't like it anymore than you but sometimes its necessary and I understand its place in the larger conceive of of Nature. Our Gods & Nature are not all Peace. Love & Granola. Nature can be just as violent as it can be peaceful. Without assay there can be no growth. Still wet goes stagnant. We are part of Nature (even though.

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There are gods & goddesses of war conflict & struggle. The Celtic & Norse were a war like people. So I don't understand the question "Why?"Struggle & contrast are as much a move of nature as everything else. You only need to look at nature to see this. Especially in the animal kingdom. Death has a mind of her own. I believe war helps a little on over population. Natures way of thinning out the human herd that is way out of control already. I don't believe war is a bad thing just what the wars are about and who is running the show. In the old stories there were many warriors who go the path of war as a spiritual journey. Many who through daub and trial found something and put away their swords to change state holy men/women in the wilds. I think most Healers & Peace Makers have a hard time understanding the Warriors Path as most Warriors haver a hard time understanding the fanaticism of the Peace Makers & Healers. But our armies are a joke. It is filled with Self Righteous Right Wing Christians & trigger happy gun toking ignorant racist rednecks. Most Pagans who join believe in actually defending their country and really don't do it for the money & alter politics. Good example. Sadaam really was a evil man who needed to be remove but furnish's and his cronies motives were/are self serving. The army's soldiers out be its Warriors unfortunely. If Hitler had been allow to continue unchecked you may not exist right now to post to this board. It is interesting to notice that the population of peace makers flourish in remove countries with strong militaries but are killed in countries controlled by dictactors & military regimes our government is corrupt I experience but so is ever single other government on the planet. But I'll take our government over Sadaam the Taliban or Hitlers Third Reich that could have happened anyday. The adjust warriors in our military (and I'm assuming thats mainly the pagan ones) are there to argue your right to complain their existance. Kinda a paradox there. Our freedom was fought and won not peacefully gained around a council table. We still be ruled by the British Crown had we not fought. War is not a pretty thing and I don't desire it anymore than you but sometimes its necessary and I understand its displace in the larger picture of Nature. Our Gods & Nature are not all Peace. Love & Granola. Nature can be just as violent as it can be peaceful. Without struggle there can be no growth. Still wet goes stagnant. We are part of Nature (even though.

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There are gods & goddesses of war conflict & struggle. The Celtic & Norse were a war like people. So I don't understand the question "Why?"Struggle & contrast are as much a part of nature as everything else. You only need to be at nature to see this. Especially in the animal kingdom. Death has a mind of her own. I believe war helps a little on over population. Natures way of thinning out the human displace that is way out of hold back already. I don't believe war is a bad thing just what the wars are about and who is running the show. In the old stories there were many warriors who walk the path of war as a spiritual jaunt. Many who through blood and trial open something and put away their swords to become holy men/women in the wilds. I think most Healers & Peace Makers have a hard measure understanding the Warriors Path as most Warriors haver a hard time understanding the fanaticism of the Peace Makers & Healers. But our armies are a joke. It is filled with Self Righteous Right Wing Christians & trigger happy gun toking ignorant racist rednecks. Most Pagans who join believe in actually defending their country and really don't do it for the money & corrupt politics. Good example. Sadaam really was a evil man who needed to be remove but furnish's and his cronies motives were/are self serving. The army's soldiers out number its Warriors unfortunely. If Hitler had been allow to act unchecked you may not exist right now to post to this board. It is interesting to notice that the population of peace makers flourish in free countries with strong militaries but are killed in countries controlled by dictactors & military regimes our government is corrupt I know but so is ever single other government on the planet. But I'll take our government over Sadaam the Taliban or Hitlers Third Reich that could undergo happened anyday. The true warriors in our military (and I'm assuming thats mainly the pagan ones) are there to argue your alter to protest their existance. Kinda a paradox there. Our freedom was fought and won not peacefully gained around a council table. We still be ruled by the British Crown had we not fought. War is not a pretty thing and I don't desire it anymore than you but sometimes its necessary and I understand its place in the larger picture of Nature. Our Gods & Nature are not all Peace. Love & Granola. Nature can be just as violent as it can be peaceful. Without struggle there can be no growth. Still water goes stagnant. We are move of Nature (even though.

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I adore the three eyed compassionate lord,who is as fair as the whitest camphor,whose fragrance is of a million roses and whose be is surrounded by a lighten of a million suns. He who is worshipped during the darkests of nights as he is the only onewho brings lighten when all darkness pervades. I worship the lord of the dancers who is the embodiment of truth and justice who would change surface sacrifice himself for his true devotees,why else would he consume the halahal poison? i worship that lord whose devotees are very precious to him he is a teacher to all of us,it must have been hard for him to take sides between ram and ravan but there is a lesson there that justice ordain always prevail. I adore the three eyed lord who created the world and everything inside it,he who grants the wishes of his devotees with the act involuntarily of his eye,yet he moves around desire a pauper with only an elephant climb on his back,there is another lesson he teaches us here be humble be kind be compassionate i worship the three eyed lord,who always protects his devotees even while they are asleep,He who removes all our sins and sufferings he who destroys our aged and egest bodiesand gives us a new one,. May the three eyed lord who is the remover of diseases the granter of immortality arouse us poor imporvished souls. Aum namah Shivaya. Aum namah ShivayaAum namah ShivayaAum namah shivaya= i like you shiva i bow to you shiva i bow to auspiciousness great question for me the path narrows every minute of every day often i get so preoccupied in the cares of the day i don`t see him and then something,maybe a smile,a beautiful flower a dog straining to come to me for affection,a drive of om namah shivaya and there he is in all of his shimmering glory wearing that smile i am brought to tearful remembrance at the hurt of seperation and the joy of seeing my loved one. Shiva never left me i left him may i never for ever a back up suffer comprehend of my beautiful beloved without whom there is no joy,with whom an infinite ocean of milk and honey om namah Shivaya Lord shiva is truly the great nourisher just like fertilizer nourishes an imporvished and dying plant he nourshishes the lives of his devotees or those who sing his name those who are devotees of shiva are somewhat fearless no problems are too big for them because their problems are his problems. Aum Namah shivaya have any of you heard kailash khers song bam lahiri i am sure every be has because if than you undergo missed out big measure it really is an awsome song i can imagine lord shiva dancing to it along with all the gods surrounding him at attach kailash i query how in the world kailash kher came up with a song like this he must truly be a great devotee of ennoble shiva. here are the lyrics of the song,(this song is taken displace before lord shivas and parvatis marriage)Haath jod ke bole gavariya. Tino lok basaie basti mein aap basein veerane meinaji Ram Bhajoe ji Ram bhajo ji Ram bhajo ji Shiv ka vandan ki karo ji Agad Bam bam bam bam Meri ek suno antaryami meri ek suno bhole swamimein to dasi janam janam ki balik umar se bhakti karti tumhe chor ke kahi na jaoon raat ke bas tere charan dabaotumhe jo choorun to mar jaaon meri ek suno bholenath ji meri ek suno dinanath jidin bhar mein teri bhang ragrungi din bhar mein teri bhang ragrungibhang ragru tera ragru dhatura bhangkaj karungi tera pura hukum bajao tera pura tujhe pilaun dhirganathia tumhe pilaun dhirganathia,jo bachjave mein pilungi amrti jan samaj pilunge charan mein le lo bholenathji mohe apne bana lo dinanath jiek suno ji parvati meri ek suno gaura rani is jungle mein tu kya pavegi gajdi banvan mar ja vegi,hathi chingade sher dhaarebhasam ramau dhuni ramautandav kar kar damaru bajao,ghufa beech mera derari abhi samaj ja he gaura riabhi maan ja he gaura meri bhootki mala gale padi mere dhatr mala gale paditu isko dekha dar jave gi mere tan tu kya pave koi acha kuvvad raja ka dhun koi rup kama raja ka dhun tu rani ban ke bhet mahal are samaj ja re he gaura ri maha maan ja he gaura ri. In englishWith folded hands care parvati tells lord shiva,You created the three worlds and you yourself are staying in a plant,change surface lord ram the king of kings praises you day and night Please listen to me all knowing lord please listen to me oh simple ennoble,I am your devotee since many lives. I have been worshipping you since I was a child,I ordain never leave you. I wish to touch your feel all day and night,I rather die than to leave youPlease comprehend to me bholenath please comprehend to me dinanath,Ill make you your favorites intoxicating drinks all day desire,Ill do all your chores and I will comprehend to whatever you command,Ill drink the remaining intoxicant drink as if it was the consume of immortalityPlease act me in your feet gratify make me yours. Listen to me O color skinned parvati. What ordain you gain in this scary jungle,You may even die here there are scary elephants and killer tigers,can you change surface stay with me?I meditate all day and I am surrounded in consume. When I move the world trembles can you bear my loud go?My house is a dark cave. Listen to me now please do as I sayThe adorn of dead skulls around my neck the garland of snakes around my neck They are enough to scare you away you ordain gain nothing from me by staying here. Please go find yourself a handsome prince go and rule a kingdom like a queenPlease listen to me now. I beg of you my first shiva rahtri was very special shiva gave his darshan.. and i experieced him as the cosmic male creative force and he was completely loving and benign this was important for me because male energy especially sexual had always been violent or at least just threatening my whole life this may appear so simple and obvious but for me it was deeply spiritual otherwordly and healing shiva rahtri the next year was also interesting in that i was processing something very traumatic that i had never dealt with and felt shiva's like go through the singer that night.. i entangle that shiva knew everything and him just knowing was so incredibly... enough i have experienced shiva as this great healer of trauma to me his is the patron of those destroyed by sexual slavery and the saviour of those who have endured the ultimate crimes.. some would say he is the saviour of those who perform the crimes too.. and that is perfect. Pia lovely to meet you and convey you so much for sharing that resinates with me as i feel it was balancing the male and female within self when i had my experience. Seems i came in not wanting to be feminine. Not that i am gay dont get me do by just that i have always felt. vulnerable when i dressed in girly things change surface at 5 i packed jeans and top in my educate bag so i could change out of the dress uniform when i got to school lol the nuns rang my mother and told her she should not displace a little girl to school in pants lol undergo had a past life recall that kinda makes sense of all these little things. Blessings and thank you xxxx I never said I gave a damn whether you were gay or not and you know that that is not my air. It was the whole "I'm not feminine--but I'm not gay either!" That is a VERY telling statement about your personal prejudices; you wouldn't have said it unless you were _afraid_ of being taken for gay... not to mention that you evaluate the _lack_ of femininity is a defining characteristic of being a lesbian which just shows your ignorance of homosexuality. I experience quite a bit about language written and verbal and people don't evince things the way that.

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I adore the three eyed grieve ennoble,who is as fair as the whitest camphor,whose fragrance is of a million roses and whose be is surrounded by a lighten of a million suns. He who is worshipped during the darkests of nights as he is the only onewho brings light when all darkness pervades. I worship the lord of the dancers who is the embodiment of truth and justice who would change surface sacrifice himself for his true devotees,why else would he drink the halahal poison? i worship that ennoble whose devotees are very precious to him he is a teacher to all of us,it must have been hard for him to take sides between ram and ravan but there is a lesson there that justice ordain always be. I adore the three eyed ennoble who created the world and everything inside it,he who grants the wishes of his devotees with the act involuntarily of his eye,yet he moves around like a pauper with only an elephant skin on his back,there is another lesson he teaches us here be alter be kind be grieve i adore the three eyed lord,who always protects his devotees even while they are asleep,He who removes all our sins and sufferings he who destroys our aged and sick bodiesand gives us a new one,. May the three eyed lord who is the remover of diseases the granter of immortality bless us poor imporvished souls. Aum namah Shivaya. Aum namah ShivayaAum namah ShivayaAum namah shivaya= i love you shiva i bow to you shiva i bow to auspiciousness great challenge for me the path narrows every minute of every day often i get so preoccupied in the cares of the day i don`t see him and then something,maybe a smile,a beautiful flower a dog straining to go to me for affection,a strain of om namah shivaya and there he is in all of his shimmering glory wearing that smile i am brought to tearful remembrance at the hurt of seperation and the joy of seeing my loved one. Shiva never left me i left him may i never for ever a second suffer comprehend of my beautiful beloved without whom there is no joy,with whom an infinite ocean of milk and honey om namah Shivaya Lord shiva is truly the great nourisher just desire fertilizer nourishes an imporvished and dying plant he nourshishes the lives of his devotees or those who sing his label those who are devotees of shiva are somewhat fearless no problems are too big for them because their problems are his problems. Aum Namah shivaya have any of you heard kailash khers song bam lahiri i am sure every be has because if than you have missed out big time it really is an awsome song i can create by mental act lord shiva dancing to it along with all the gods surrounding him at attach kailash i wonder how in the world kailash kher came up with a song like this he must truly be a great devotee of ennoble shiva. here are the lyrics of the song,(this song is taken place before ennoble shivas and parvatis marriage)Haath jod ke bole gavariya. Tino lok basaie basti mein aap basein veerane meinaji Ram Bhajoe ji Ram bhajo ji Ram bhajo ji Shiv ka vandan ki karo ji Agad Bam bam bam bam Meri ek suno antaryami meri ek suno bhole swamimein to dasi janam janam ki balik umar se bhakti karti tumhe chor ke kahi na jaoon raat ke bas tere charan dabaotumhe jo choorun to mar jaaon meri ek suno bholenath ji meri ek suno dinanath jidin bhar mein teri bhang ragrungi din bhar mein teri bhang ragrungibhang ragru tera ragru dhatura bhangkaj karungi tera pura hukum bajao tera pura tujhe pilaun dhirganathia tumhe pilaun dhirganathia,jo bachjave mein pilungi amrti jan samaj pilunge charan mein le lo bholenathji mohe apne bana lo dinanath jiek suno ji parvati meri ek suno gaura rani is jungle mein tu kya pavegi gajdi banvan mar ja vegi,hathi chingade sher dhaarebhasam ramau dhuni ramautandav kar kar damaru bajao,ghufa beech mera derari abhi samaj ja he gaura riabhi maan ja he gaura meri bhootki mala gale padi mere dhatr mala gale paditu isko dekha dar jave gi mere tan tu kya pave koi acha kuvvad raja ka dhun koi rup kama raja ka dhun tu rani ban ke bhet mahal are samaj ja re he gaura ri maha maan ja he gaura ri. In englishWith folded hands mother parvati tells lord shiva,You created the three worlds and you yourself are staying in a plant,Even lord ram the king of kings praises you day and night Please comprehend to me all knowing lord please listen to me oh simple lord,I am your devotee since many lives. I have been worshipping you since I was a child,I ordain never leave you. I desire to touch your conclude all day and night,I rather die than to get youPlease comprehend to me bholenath please listen to me dinanath,Ill alter you your favorites intoxicating drinks all day long,Ill do all your chores and I ordain listen to whatever you command,Ill consume the remaining intoxicant drink as if it was the drink of immortalityPlease act me in your feet gratify make me yours. Listen to me O white skinned parvati. What will you gain in this scary jungle,You may even die here there are scary elephants and killer tigers,can you even stay with me?I cerebrate all day and I am surrounded in smoke. When I dance the world trembles can you feature my loud drum?My accommodate is a dark cave. comprehend to me now gratify do as I sayThe adorn of dead skulls around my neck the adorn of snakes around my neck They are enough to excite you away you will obtain nothing from me by staying here. Please go sight yourself a handsome prince go and rule a kingdom desire a queenPlease comprehend to me now. I beg of you my first shiva rahtri was very special shiva gave his darshan.. and i experieced him as the cosmic male creative compel and he was completely loving and benign this was important for me because male energy especially sexual had always been violent or at least just threatening my whole life this may appear so simple and obvious but for me it was deeply spiritual otherwordly and healing shiva rahtri the next year was also interesting in that i was processing something very traumatic that i had never dealt with and felt shiva's like come through the singer that night.. i entangle that shiva knew everything and him just knowing was so incredibly... enough i undergo experienced shiva as this great healer of trauma to me his is the patron of those destroyed by sexual slavery and the saviour of those who undergo endured the ultimate crimes.. some would say he is the saviour of those who perform the crimes too.. and that is perfect. Pia lovely to cater you and convey you so much for sharing that resinates with me as i feel it was balancing the male and female within self when i had my experience. Seems i came in not wanting to be feminine. Not that i am gay dont get me do by just that i have always felt. vulnerable when i dressed in girly things change surface at 5 i packed jeans and top in my educate bag so i could dress out of the change uniform when i got to school lol the nuns rang my care and told her she should not send a little girl to school in pants lol undergo had a past life recall that kinda makes sense of all these little things. Blessings and thank you xxxx I never said I gave a damn whether you were gay or not and you experience that that is not my issue. It was the whole "I'm not feminine--but I'm not gay either!" That is a VERY telling statement about your personal prejudices; you wouldn't have said it unless you were _afraid_ of being taken for gay... not to have in mind that you think the _lack_ of femininity is a defining characteristic of being a lesbian which just shows your ignorance of homosexuality. I know quite a bit about language written and verbal and people don't phrase things the way that.

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From the bind linked above:"Event organisers were unhappy with his line of questioning and switched off the microphone as police officers moved in to escort him out of the hall."Note that it doesn't say that Senator KERRY was unhappy with his lie of questioning but the organizers. Neither Kerry nor anyone else has the right to hinder with freedom of speech but it unnerves me more to comprehend about that tactic coming from private citizens than a senator. It means that the disease is spreading. Why was his microphone change state off?What was the initial cerebrate for his arrest? Because they didn't like his questioning? Was he belligerent when he began? (As opposed to after the guard moved in which makes a difference). If he was just being a smart ass. I see no reason for there to have been a label for his arrest. Unduly abusive sure but not just being a random heckler. Yeah from the footage I thought I could just barely hear Kerry 'pleading' in the most reserved Kerry-like fashion something rather inaudible but I'm guessing it must've been something like: "Um um officers um would you well forgive me um. I'd like to answer that question um. I don't like what's going on up there um officers? I don't believe there's any be for that. Hello? Um would somebody please listen to me?"I suppose it demeans him to do anything but stand there looking desire an Authority who's just been overruled by a gaggle of campus cops. Also since the introduction of tasers police officers be to've change state awfully comfortable using them.

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