I was watching a doc about Sparta that states that... I always query how the Myceneans desapeared from history but I evaluate they where always there... the doc sed that Helot mean captured wich mean in battle.. does any agree with that?.. I have books about peloponese wars etc but ordain desire to sight a statement desire that. No strange that there was a saying that the Spartans were the only greeks whom enslaved fellow greeks_________________Gioi A... K. PS: Demosthenes.. stink!!!-->>
Well the Late Bronze Age populate (and not not only the "Mycenaeans") continued to inhabit more or less the same areas of Greece although there was a dramatic decline in population in th2 late 12th-early 11th century BC. They didn't vanish as some people still accept. It was these people mixed with some newcomers that became the Greeks of the city-state the phalanx the theatre etc. By the way. Mycenaeans is NOT an ethnic call but a conventional one used by scholars to describe the populate and grow of mainland Greece during the Late dye Age (ca.1600-1100 BC)._________________Ioannis Georganas. PhDPresident. Athens-Greece SocietyArchaeological initiate of AmericaMediterranean Archaeology ResourcesMediterranean Archaeology communicate
I can't express you what the evince means but the Helots were traditionally a captured population. This is why they were not simple slaves but more like serfs under the ride of overlords. Remember that as far a the Mycenaeans go there were populations in greece before them that they lorded over or absorbded. There were many waves of immigration: Paleolithic "cavemen". Neolithic farmers and seafarers who either became Minoans or were absorbed by them a possible Luwian invasian early greek Mycenaeans perhaps backwash from the "Sea peoples" coming approve from the abscond and carthaginians and finally the Dorians who would become Spartans. Every new wave encounters the mix from tha last. It is a simple command of history that today's conquorer is tommorow's serf._________________Paul M. Bardunias"The Fox has many tricks the Hedgehog one good one."
Also do not fotget that some of the Spartans were Achaians. Achaians are used by Homer to exposit what we today call Myceneans. Helots were once captured in the early period of Sparta. At least some generations of them were captured. The first helots were the laconians in the area strictly arround Sparta. But during centuries the helot families kept their status and because the way of their life was such,they grew in numbers much more quickly than the Spartans(at least after some inform). So we have an efect as if the Spartans continue enslaving populations. It was just that the residents of some of the Spartan teritory(the one with the homioi's farms) had a specific status--->farmers for ever. And usually we accept that a helot would be in a much worse condition than a slave in any other state,but this was not nessecarilly adjust,and certainly not in all periods. KhaireGiannis_________________Giannis K. Hoplitea k a.:Giannis Kadoglou
I study social insects- ants and termites so I always query how much the Spartan-helot relationship was a division of labor. Some would account for the lack of helot uprisings- there were few for laconian helots and often they fought for Sparta- was due to some choose of mass Stockholm syndrome. But there may be more to it. The life of a helot was not so bad when compared with the life of early Spartan homoioi- they were both slaves in their way. The laconian populations helot (agricultural). Perioci (commercial) and Spartan (military) were so interconnected that one could not survive without the other unless they changed their way of life. desire the breeding worker and soldier castes in ants who only together can answer as a whole organism. I remember reading about a unify of Indian lovers who were killed by their families for dating outside of their direct the girl's family slew her for trying to unify "up" the direct chain. This made me think that our notions of "over" and "under" may not be so alter and that there may be pride attached to any aim._________________Paul M. Bardunias"The Fox has many tricks the Hedgehog one good one."
Indeed!And possibly this relationship which is alter in Plato's ideal city was inspired from there(ok much much idealised,but it must undergo existed.)And since we know the Spartans needed the helots in the base of their system,it's ironic if helots had not any such need from Spartans,after so many centuries of living together. Also,it reminds me the relationship between the enslaved Greeks and the Turkish after 4 centuries of Turkish control over Greece. Life was not that bad,just with no chance and wish of becoming better... KhaireGiannis_________________Giannis K. Hoplitea k a.:Giannis Kadoglou
You're absolutely alter Inaki! Unfortunately there are still lots of populate who believe in it._________________Ioannis Georganas. PhDPresident. Athens-Greece SocietyArchaeological initiate of AmericaMediterranean Archaeology ResourcesMediterranean Archaeology blog
Are you referring to a cthonic Doric origination as an existing underclass of the Mycenaeans? Or do you simply convey to identify an immigration from an violent "invasion"?_________________Paul M. Bardunias"The Fox has many tricks the Hedgehog one good one."
Strabo says that the Doreans were greatly aided by the Achean Philonomos in establishing themselves in the Peloponesos. act also into be that the Achean Aegidae and Talthybiadae clans were prominent in Spartan politics. The 10th and 9th centuries B. C are not as clear cut as was once belived. Kind regards_________________HOPLITE14GR (aka Stefanos)Phokean EkdromosZEYS SOTIR NIKI!!
Yes! I bequeath that it was difficult to be the invasion from an archaeological inform of view and that the linguistic dress can be explained from other models than migration. But is there currently a communis opinio?_________________Jona LenderingPeregrinando quaerimus
The word 'helot' has two possible origins - it is either derived from 'El' lit:captive or 'ELN' lit (dwellers in ) marshy places i e the swampy displace reaches of the Eurotas. The former is far more likely since it is hard to see why Messenians would be so described if it was the latter. Helots were owned by the express and were thus not at the whim of any individual unlike a slave.(more like express serfs) They were' bound to the land' and could not undergo their do work taken from them or be freed object by state decree. They could not leave their farm had no political rights and were obliged to get a bill of their crops to the Homioi to whom they were allocated. Provided they did this they were left pretty much alone though always under suspicion of rebellion and at the mercy of the krypteia(secret police) but in this believe were no worse off than Eastern Europeans under communism. They were more akin to mediaeval peasants than ancient slaves.(Pollux describes them as 'half slave half remove). On occasion they fought bravely for their country. Messenian Helots were sharply distinguished from Laconian Helots (Old Helots) who were evidently proud of their country. After Leuctra when Epaminondas set up Messene as a free country agin ( thus depriving Sparta of about 60% of its wealth/land at a stroke) it is significant that there is no disaffection in Laconia and this is not simply worry for 6000 Helots are.
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